Public Safety Committee on March 18th, 2010

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Three seconds.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay, just a quick question of Mr. Baker. Noticing on page 21 of the estimates that there is money allocated for short-term sustainability of policing agreements and program review with first nations policing programs, I'm just wondering what the objectives are of those review programs with first nations policing, and is there any intent to review the cooperation between the police services and the enforcement of tobacco smuggling laws?

[Myles Kirvan]

If I could just answer it, this is a fundamental look, a comprehensive look at the first nations policing program in terms of funding, delivery mechanisms, adequacy, the kinds of services being delivered, and so on, and it's really about effectiveness and responsiveness--is it fulfilling the objectives that were set out for it in terms of augmenting in the provincial jurisdiction police services for first nations that are culturally appropriate, and so on.

An issue like that could come up through the consultations. Of course we're talking to all the provinces, to the first nations, and so on. There could be other policing issues, cooperation issues, and so on, that could come up as well. It's not the main focus of it, but those issues could arise.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Deputy Commissioner Sweeney, I'd like to continue with the investigation the public accounts committee did into the RCMP. Superintendent Christian Picard in that testimony said something that was quite poignant, and I'd like to read it:

When I joined the RCMP, as with any member of the RCMP, I swore to uphold the law and to respect it. I ask myself this question every day: if the RCMP does not respect the Access to Information Act, who will? For five years I made sure I respected the spirit of the act. Of course, this meant that I fought epic battles with senior managers. That was not always easy within a paramilitary organization like the RCMP. You try to protect the organization against itself, but that is often perceived as being disloyal to the organization.

In later testimony it came out that when Superintendent Picard had tried to do what was right, soon afterward he was seconded to Africa to the Ivory Coast, and when I asked him what happened when he came back, he said they didn't have a job for him. He stayed home.

I understand that four out of the five key whistle-blowers during the RCMP investigation are no longer with the force. They did a tremendous service. We're all proud of those officers. They did what was right and they tried to uphold the rules and the law. They knew they were going to pay a personal cost and they all felt that it was worth the personal cost for the greater public service that they had made by coming forward.

As a result, there were a number of reports. You had the parliamentary committee reviewing this for about a year and a half; 31 recommendations were unanimously passed by the committee. The government finally did the Brown report. Two former commissioners took part in the panel that wrote the Brown report. It was called “Rebuilding the Trust--Report of the Task Force on Governance and Cultural Change in the RCMP”, 49 recommendations. The deadline for all of them to be acted upon was this past December.

Of the 49 Brown report recommendations and the 31 recommendations unanimously passed by the parliamentary committee, how many have been acted upon?

[D/Commr William Sweeney]

I could probably talk about transformation in a much more fulsome fashion as it relates to the 49 recommendations of the task force. I know that we responded to the parliamentary committee with respect to the 31 recommendations, but I don't have that information right in front of me.

There are some complications with respect to how I can respond to how the RCMP dealt with the 49 recommendations, because some of those recommendations were not to the RCMP; they were to government. We had control over some elements of those recommendations but not complete control. Certainly we did not have control over some of the more governance related issues, such as a renewed public complaints entity, governance, and the board of management. But the RCMP has been very active in moving forward on the recommendations from the task force. In fact, the government appointed a reform implementation council that has regularly reported. Actually, they are about to table the fourth report on progress since the reform implementation council was initiated.

Generally speaking, if I may take some liberties, my read of the reform implementation council's assessment of our progress has been that they are favourably impressed with what we have done. Having said that, we are probably harder markers on ourselves. We can do much better than we have and will continue to do so.

As an explanation, and not as an excuse, we have been enormously busy with things like the G-8, the G-20, the Olympics, and our day-to-day operational requirements. It is like redesigning an airplane in flight. Having said that, we have been very successful in dealing with the Treasury Board. We have new authorities delegated to us, which was an issue Mr. Brown raised with us. We have announced a new external review policy and are actively engaged.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

If I may, because there is so little time, could you provide the committee with a checklist of recommendations and how they've been acted upon? Unfortunately, the minister is not here, so I can't ask the minister--he left after an hour--whether he could provide the same for those that were relevant for the government to act upon.

[D/Commr William Sweeney]

I'd be very pleased to do that, and I will also supply the reform implementation council's reports.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We have one and a half minutes left. We'll go to Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Commissioner, I find it quite interesting that my colleague goes back to the years 2000 to 2003 to dig up the issues that were under a previous government. We are trying to fix them. This government is trying to fix those issues.

I think the Brown report has been discussed. Certainly parts of it have. I believe that we got reports indicating that the vast majority of the recommendations that could be covered have been covered. I think most things are up to date.

I am more interested, as we go forward--we are fixing some of those past things--in the training at the depot, in the money that has gone in there, and in the additional police officers. Those all have to be things that are good for the force.

I am just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on those issues.

[D/Commr William Sweeney]

Thank you.

I agree that since four years ago, three years ago, we have come a long way. We have filled our vacancies in contract policing. As you may recall, Mr. Brown reflected that there were significant challenges in resource levels across the country. Last year we trained over 1,700 cadets, which is absolutely an incredible number.

We have increased our investment in training a full continuum of leadership, leadership being an issue Mr. Brown also identified with respect to things that needed reform within the RCMP. He talked about bureaucratic systems. There has been an enormous amount of work on all of those things, which I will be pleased to table.

I am confident that the RCMP has moved light years. I was mentioning to the deputy minister a few minutes ago that it is like your children. Day to day you don't necessarily see a change, but all of a sudden they're in elementary school. All of a sudden they're in high school, and suddenly they're out the door. Then they come back and ask for $30,000 or thereabouts.

Nevertheless, I believe that we are making that type of change.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you. I really appreciate that. I think it is like General Hillier said: it was a decade of darkness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I would like to thank all our witnesses very much for coming. I think it's been a very useful session.

This meeting stands adjourned.