Public Safety Committee on Nov. 24th, 2010

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

Victims definitely feel strongly about the bill.

I think Mr. Davies raised a really good question, in that we, as victims of crime, have come a long way in the justice system. We are kept informed, if we so choose, by the National Parole Board about offenders who are incarcerated. We are kept informed as to certain things they are doing, such as if they have any types of passes, and things like that.

However, when it comes to the pardon system as it stands today—or record suspension in the new legislation—I'm confused. I always thought a pardon was almost like a secret. I can see where Sheldon would not have been informed. There is no legislation in relation to that.

I would also like to say that I totally agree with Sheldon, and I think everybody else agrees, that victimization is almost like a circle. Where do we stop? Our organization is advocating, along with Sheldon, that sexual offences be denied. Yet I've heard others say and agree that a lot of individuals who are in our prison system and have mental health issues have been victims of crimes themselves.

So how do we stop this? How do we prevent this? I certainly can't speak for Sheldon, but I've heard what he and the victims I speak with have said. My son was murdered, but it was a total sex crime—he was abducted and raped. That's an issue that I, as a mother, after 29 years, have hardly had a chance to even deal with yet. It just seems to go on and on.

In this particular case there has to be strong opposition to people who choose to commit crimes against children. If it means that they cannot get a pardon, so be it. At certain times we have to be strong enough as a society to recognize that. That could be a possibility, among other things, in starting the prevention, stopping the circle.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Kennedy, I've heard different words used here today. I'm not being disrespectful to the person who said them, but they talked about it being degrading and humiliating, and the stigma attached to being arrested and charged, and perhaps incarcerated. Would those be similar feelings you have expressed as a result of having been a victim?

[Sheldon Kennedy]

Absolutely. There's the shame and the guilt. I go back to that reintegration into society for the victim as well. We look at Sharon, and 29 years later she's still trying to find a way, a place that puts her at ease when she wakes up every day.

For myself, those are feelings that are absolutely real. Being a victim and needing to change my own life, I understand the commitment it takes. It's tough. I know I couldn't just write a letter and be okay the next day. That's not the way it worked for me.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

The other thing is my friend Mr. Davies mentioned there being nothing in this act for victims. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it would almost seem to me that what you have indicated is that when you realized Graham James was out, it was almost like being victimized again.

[Sheldon Kennedy]

Yes. It was a shock. It's something I had never thought about. I was lucky I was far enough along that I didn't look at it with anger, but I looked at it as how we are best going to handle this, and how we are best going to protect our youth and organizations from it happening again. That is where my mind is at when I look at this. It is not about what has happened. It's about preventing it from happening again. That's why I sit here today.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Ashby, I think you indicated the fees had been moved to $500. If I were to say to you that they are $150....

[Michael Ashby]

The legislative summary indicated $500. We know the parole board has been proposing....

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Would that be Parliament's legislative summary, or another group's legislative summary?

[Michael Ashby]

I believe it is the summary for Bill C-23B.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I think it is $150.

[Nicole Levesque]

There is a proposal where they state fees. I think what he is referring to is fees and expenses, so the total can cost someone well over $500 when you factor in the parole board fees and the other costs of putting a pardon together.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Would you have a fee?

[Nicole Levesque]

We do have a fee, and we do two different things. We do telephone support for people who are doing their own pardons and we help people advise them there. We are also an RCMP-accredited company that does fingerprints for people who are doing their own. If someone wants to hire an accountant to do their taxes for them, they can hire us to take over the paperwork for them.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just for clarification, your time is up.

As a point of clarification, the only one we have record of is the Elizabeth Fry Society, which indicated that the fee for obtaining a pardon may increase to $500 somewhere down the road. I think the summary on the legislation is $150.

We'll now go back to the Liberal Party, Mrs. Mendes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will share my time with Mr. Kania.

Thanks to all participants for their presentations.

First, I would like to thank you, Mr. Bérard, for a quotation that you included in your presentation document. With your permission, I'm going to cite it because I find it very appropriate.

I will quote from Mr. Bérard's presentation:

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.

Martin Luther King Junior said that.

I would say that for the purpose of our discussions here, I totally agree, Mrs. Rosenfeldt, that the person who committed the crime against your son should not get a pardon, absolutely not. But would you think that someone like Mr. Myette should be denied a pardon?

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

Not at all, and I don't think that would be attempted.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That is what you are also trying to bring to this, yes. That's what I'd like to be clear. We are trying to make a distinction between sexual offenders and heinous crimes, and people who sometimes commit mistakes when they are younger, but have rehabilitated themselves and have contributed enormously to society. Do they deserve a pardon?

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

Yes. In fact, if I can just be quick here, a member of our board of directors—he's been a long-standing member and has numerous indictable offences—went so far as to refuse parole years ago. Once he had seen the light, he wanted to change. He said if society deemed that he serve ten years—that was the last sentence—then he wanted to serve the full ten years. He has never asked, though, for a pardon. I just spoke with him a couple of days ago on this very issue, and he said he didn't need it.

However, in answer to your question, yes, I would definitely be in agreement with Mr. Myette and the question that you asked.

It's specifically from victims groups, I think. It's specifically serious crime: sex offenders and outrageous acts. That's what we're concerned about.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I'd like to ask Mr. Bérard a brief question, very quickly.

You talked about the Parole Board of Canada and the discretion that must surround the administration of an individual's criminal record. You wonder whether or not the victim will have access to the pardon application or to the pardon application request.

Could you simply clarify your view on clause 21?

[François Bérard]

The French wording of clause 21 gives the impression that the board could communicate information. However, the idea behind the pardon-granting process was more to take an individual's criminal record and transfer it to another file so that the general public would not have access to it.

It's a matter of wording. We invite parliamentarians to reword this clause to resolve any ambiguity. We need not question legislators' intent. That's why we could not take a position on the substance of that clause.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bérard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have one minute.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Ms. Rosenfeldt, to go back to what you were saying, in those circumstances you've said that Mr. Myette should get his pardon, and that the person on your board of directors, if he wanted a pardon, should get one.

What we're really talking about--and I agree with this--is that people who have committed serious crimes, especially involving children, should not receive pardons. You agree with that. Because of the wording in this bill, it might prevent somebody like Mr. Myette or the person on your board of directors from receiving a pardon. You must agree that this bill is at least partially flawed, and you can't support all of it.

[Sharon Rosenfeldt]

In my opening statement I said that I was here in support of this bill.