Public Safety Committee on Nov. 29th, 2010

[Commr William Elliott]

I would certainly agree that it's a learning experience.

I would say, though, that I still have a huge amount to learn, but I'm not sure I can any longer agree that it's a new position. By my count, I've been commissioner for three years, four months, and 12 days. I didn't actually count that until you asked the question.

Mr. Chairman, may I make just two very quick comments?

First of all, with respect to the potential for governance changes, I don't foresee significant changes with respect to the responsibilities of the Minister of Public Safety. I think his role and the role and interest of Parliament in its national police force will continue.

With respect to a paramilitary organization, even the military would say that you cannot run a modern organization by simply giving orders and expecting orders to be carried out--if you could ever do this. There is certainly a time and a place for the giving and carrying out of orders, but most of the time, in most of what we do, there is a requirement for good discussion and debate, and that is what I and my colleagues are very much trying to foster.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think that was the point I was trying to make, Commissioner: there is always some healthy discussion within an organization. Others would call it dissent, but if you don't have that healthy discussion, you don't get the change that's required. Your organization is one that is going through that transformational change and you will have that discussion. I'm sure that's been going on for those three years and whatever months and hours you spoke of, but that's not unhealthy. That is a healthy part of change.

[Commr William Elliott]

I think it certainly can be very healthy. I would not say that all the discussion that has taken place has been healthy, but we're very much committed to trying to resolve that, and I think the best way to resolve issues is to have frank discussions.

I think my colleagues may wish to comment, but I'm quite confident that we're having frank discussions. Among my colleagues who are here or my other colleagues more broadly, certainly those on the senior executive and senior management teams, there is no shyness in speaking their minds, particularly when they don't agree with me.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I never like that part of it, but I understand it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

May I...? We do have a minute on Mr. MacKenzie's time. What is the RCMP doing, though, to bring leadership along, to be able to see people come up, with the idea that it can be developed...? Is leadership being developed any differently now than it was, let's say, five, six, seven, or eight years ago?

[Commr William Elliott]

Perhaps Deputy Nause, who's our chief human resources officer, is best placed to respond to that question, Mr. Chairman.

[D/Commr Al Nause]

Over the last couple of years we've appointed a leadership champion. We've developed a leadership development strategy, which establishes the continuum for leadership development and incorporates talent management, succession planning, coaching, mentoring, and both formal and informal learning opportunities.

We're identifying high-impact positions and the competencies required for each of those positions, then doing an environmental scan of our leaders of tomorrow and developing individualized learning plans for them. We have some innovative strategies. We've gone out with a request for a proposal on developing university management courses for some of our people.

We have a national performance program. We're looking at leadership from cradle to grave, so to speak. We're looking at the leadership behaviours we're fostering and encouraging at our cadet training in Regina. We're also looking at first-level supervisors, at giving them the proper skill sets to be able to develop their own leadership ability. Then we're looking at managerial development and training so that people can execute as well as obtain results.

As I outlined, we're also looking at executive talent and management, as well as specific training for our executives. What we want in the future is to have our leaders being developed from a very early stage right up through to the end of their careers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. We may come back to that.

Madame Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am very happy to hear what you have to say, Mr. Nause, concerning the big changes you are making within the RCMP.

I'd like to go back to one point. My colleagues put questions to the commissioner and the replies he gave did not really answer my own questions.

Mr. Commissioner, you did say that you had neither given permission nor forbidden the deputy commissioner, Mr. Souccar, from coming here before this House committee. Is that correct?

[Commr William Elliott]

Exact.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I think it is fair to say that before he left the premises, at the RCMP, the deputy commissioner no longer had an office, he was working from home, he had no BlackBerry cell phone and was no longer receiving any information at all from the RCMP.

Do you have any comments to make on that?

[Commr William Elliott]

According to what I know, that is not the case. An office was available to him. There was a change, and he is no longer in the same office. He does have a BlackBerry and has access to all of our information and communications.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

We were also told, Mr. Commissioner, that he is not here today because he was not even informed of this hearing. He did not even know that the RCMP had been invited to meet with us today.

[Commr William Elliott]

Well, I have reason to believe he is aware that we are here today. I have that second-, third-, or fourth-hand, but no, an invitation was not extended. As I say, my understanding is that the committee expressed interest in my attendance and Mr. Souccar's attendance. We responded that we proposed to have me attend, ultimately with my colleagues who are here, so.... To my knowledge, the RCMP did not communicate with Mr. Souccar about today's appearance.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is along the same lines. It does not pertain to Mr. Souccar directly.

We heard that several people had criticized your behaviour as RCMP commissioner. It was pointed out that when you announced promotions at the RCMP, none of the people who had criticized your behaviour had been promoted. Was that because these people ended their careers, or was it due to other factors?

[Commr William Elliott]

Well, I think as we've already ascertained, Mr. Chairman, from the comments of my colleague, Mr. Killam, I don't think we can rely on the media reports with respect to who made what criticisms. I will tell you that there was no consideration about promoting or not promoting people based on any real or perceived conflict with me or complaints about me.

I might also mention, Mr. Chairman, that the decisions with respect to promotions—and in some cases we had people change positions without promotion—were all done in consultation. They were not my decisions alone...well, I guess at the end I'm the commissioner, and the buck stops with me. But as is the case with how we have been doing promotions and assigning senior people—for regular members, that means chief superintendents, assistant commissioners, and deputy commissioners—we discussed those matters among the senior executive committee.

At no time, as I recall, colleagues, was there a discussion about not promoting anybody or promoting anybody based on complaints or concerns.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Folco.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Commissioner, I do recall your first visit to our committee, and I do recall relating to you my experience in the OPP. My first commissioner was indeed a civilian. On that transition, after having our meeting, I did talk to some....and here I have to watch my language, but I refer to them as old farts from the old days, and they tell me that the transition usually is not really smooth, meaning to say that when someone is promoted from outside an organization, particularly when a civilian takes over a uniform, a paramilitary organization, there sometimes is resistance.

But after a while that resistance is diminished because, in my respectful opinion, in running an organization as large as the RCMP--or any police or paramilitary organization--there are certain corporate decisions to be made. You're running an organization, so there's the chain of command, but it does take some time. Not having had the privilege of depot, you need to get into the psyche of the RCMP, I think, and quite frankly, from a personal perspective, I think you're doing that very well.

But my question and comment are a result of many of the folks who will be watching today and their experience with municipal police forces. At a municipal level, you would never see what's happening here, because those personnel issues would be done behind closed doors. But that's the difference between Ottawa and how municipal police function.

Normally, as I said, these personality or personnel issues would be done in private, but this is Ottawa. It is highly politicized and highly politically charged and everybody is looking for an advantage. But my hope—and I believe it to be uniform here, hopefully—is that we all want you, the RCMP and you, to be the most successful police organization this nation has ever known, because we need to have that in this day and age.

My first direct question is to Deputy Killam. There was some discussion here about formalizing a complaint or grievance. I didn't know that senior management had a grievance process, but I guess there must be one. I suspect there isn't, but.... Number one, is there a grievance process, and, Deputy, have you ever enacted that grievance process? May I also ask you directly, if you did have an issue with the commissioner, how would you handle that or how does the organization believe it should be handled?

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

The grievance process is something that I can use for myself as well. I can tell you that in this situation, I've indicated that I was not part of a formal grievance in any way, shape, or form. The commissioner is a straightforward and sometimes blunt individual. We address each other in quite similar fashions, quite frankly, and we do it behind closed doors if we have differences of opinion. That's the way it should be, and that's the way it would be at the senior executive. That's the way we handle ourselves at the senior executive table. It's done in a professional, straightforward, frank way. Going outside of that is not useful for anyone--and in particular, the organization.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

And I suspect you have at least 28 to 30 years of experience. Would that be pretty close?

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

I think you're a little bit off, a little bit behind the number. I have seven weeks left before I retire--35 years.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

You have 35 years; I suspected that. Has there been any significant change over the last 10 or 12 years in that grievance process or in any of the normal relationships, shall we say, particularly in senior management?

[D/Commr Tim Killam]

I'm not sure I understand. I mean, I think it's essentially the same.