Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

We're a little delayed and we give our apologies to Madame Morin. We had some votes in the House, and as all members know, it's important that we stick around for them.

We want to welcome each one here to meeting 46 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security It is Wednesday, December 8, 2010.

In our second hour we anticipate being able to have some committee business time. In our first hour our committee will have a briefing on the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. Appearing to testify before us today is Ms. Marie-Lucie Morin, former national security advisor to the Prime Minister and associate secretary to the cabinet.

We thank you for being able to make yourself available to us today. I also want to congratulate you on the new position that you have begun. We look forward to your opening comments.

Before we do that, I see Mr. Holland has his hand in the air.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I have a point on the second order of business. If you seek it, I wonder if you will find unanimous consent in the second hour to deal with the mental health and addictions study. We're close to having it done. We really wanted to have it done prior to heading into the Christmas break.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Maybe we can wait until we get to committee business.

Go ahead, Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Out of respect for Madame Morin, who has taken time out of her very busy life to be with us today and has come from a far distance, I wonder if we can make sure we take one hour with her. The second hour is only committee business, so perhaps we can take that full hour and shorten the second hour to 45 minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Morin, are you able to stay for one hour?

[Marie-Lucie Morin, Former National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, As an Individual]

I am at the disposal of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

All right. Madame Morin, we would--oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I know there have been some previous discussions, and we haven't had confirmation of what Mr. Holland was saying. Our side had asked that we push our motion ahead about dealing with clause-by-clause study of Bill C-23B.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Those are things we can discuss once we move into committee business.

Go ahead, Madame Morin, please.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Distinguished committee members, it's a great pleasure to be here today.

I have not prepared an opening statement, so I am at the disposal of the committee today. I will turn it over to you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. We will move into the first round of questions. This is a question that came out of a motion to look at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Mr. Holland, you have seven minutes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madame Morin, for appearing before the committee today. I'm not sure whether or not you have been following the proceedings of the committee. As you may be aware, Mr. Fadden was before the committee talking about comments he made on CBC television on this notion that certain municipal officials were under the influence--whatever that might mean--of foreign governments, and that foreign governments were exerting control over Canadian citizens with an attempt to try to influence Canadian policy.

I've had an opportunity to travel the country and talk to many of the groups that feel these very broad assertions have had a very detrimental impact upon them. They feel as though they're constantly being watched, and that there's a cloud of suspicion hanging over them.

Regarding those comments, Mr. Fadden said he had talked to the centre about those concerns--the centre presumably being the PCO and perhaps yourself.

Did you have conversations around these types of concerns with Mr. Fadden?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Thank you for that question.

First of all, I'm well aware of the session Mr. Fadden had with the committee back in July. It is a fact that Mr. Fadden had mentioned to me early in 2010 that at some point he intended to come to brief me on matters concerning foreign interference.

I would like to add that the matter of foreign interference, of course, is not new. There is a reason that it was provided for in the powers of CSIS in the act in 1984. We have been aware of this vulnerability in the country for a very long time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Fadden said he wanted to brief you. Did he, in fact, brief you?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

He didn't at that time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

At what time did he brief you?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Fadden indicated to the committee that he had given me a heads-up early in 2010. As you can well imagine, when I was national security advisor, I would have received a heads-up on a whole host of matters on the part of not only Mr. Fadden but other heads of departments and agencies also.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Sure, but in the spring of 2010 you were made aware of Mr. Fadden's concern, a concern that he took so seriously that he went on national television and made a proclamation about what a threat it posed to Canada. Obviously he must have used similar language to you in the spring about how seriously he took the matter.

When he informed you of this, what conversations did you have with the Prime Minister's Office, with any ministers, or with the Prime Minister himself on this matter?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

When Mr. Fadden gave me a heads-up early in 2010, I did not have any conversation with anyone about this because it was strictly a heads-up. I did not feel that I had to pursue the matter.

As I said, I would receive a heads-up on a whole host of matters, and you just put them aside and wait, essentially, to be briefed on the matters. It would be the same, by the way, if we were talking about a counterterrorism case or any other case.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

He went on national television and stated with enormous urgency that there was this threat to national security. He walks in and shares this grave threat. He's the director of our intelligence agency. He feels that it's a grave enough threat that mere months later he appears on national television and talks about it.

Did he couch it in those same terms? Did he stress to you what a clear and present danger he thought this was to national security in the same way that he did on national television? Did that then just stop with you?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

First of all, I would not agree with the premise that the director couched the matter in terms of a grave attack or a threat to national security.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But he did say it was a serious threat, and he said it on national television.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

He did say that foreign interference, in general, was a vulnerability and could be a threat. It can be and is a vulnerability.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Let's take the issue broadly, then, because you said it had been outstanding for some period of time. What conversations did you have with the Prime Minister's Office or with any ministers about foreign influence being exerted by other countries on Canada?

If you said this was a matter that had been going on for some time, what conversations had you had and what advice had you provided?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chairman, there are four specific threats that are identified in the CSIS Act, and I repeat that foreign interference is one of them.

In the course of our business dealing with national security, we would be apprised of threats with respect to each one of the vulnerabilities that are identified with respect to the national security of Canada on an ongoing basis.