Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think it is up to the government to decide whether the gun registry should be scrapped or not.

The RCMP's role was simply to show the advantages and disadvantages of the gun registry. I believe the person in charge at the time, Chief Superintendent Marty Cheliak, presented the pros and cons of the registry.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I bet Mr. Cheliak is no longer in the same position.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, he was transferred to language training.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In your view, were the reasons for the transfer innocent, or would you say, based on your information—and I am certain you have spoken to Mr. Cheliak and you do have that information—that Mr. Cheliak was transferred precisely because he demonstrated to this committee that the registry worked?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I know the position Marty Cheliak held was a bilingual one requiring the person in it to be bilingual. I also know that Marty Cheliak is not bilingual.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I believe there are many members of the RCMP who are not bilingual but who stay in their positions all the same, is that not right?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That program is now under the direction of Deputy Commissioner Tim Killam, so he may know more than I do. I have no other information on that. I had such a large area of responsibility that I had little time to worry about anything else.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. McDonell, on July 21, you sent the public safety minister a long letter in which you complained about Mr. Elliott. In particular, you said in the letter that the commissioner was not very involved in the G20 operations. I believe he visited the troops the day before the event began.

Could you tell us exactly what you criticized Commissioner Elliott for in that letter?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. McDonell.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I did not sign that letter; nor did I send it.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It has your name and your signature. You are Mike McDonell, are you not?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I did not send that letter.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You did not send the letter that you, yourself, signed?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

In August? No.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In July.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

Forgive me. In July, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

This is your signature, is it not?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

Yes, there are two letters. That one is mine, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could you please tell us what this letter says?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I have a copy here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Mourani.

You may answer this question, and then we're out of time. The question was what is in the letter?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

The theme, starting off, was the erosion of public confidence in the force. An agency usually adopts the character of the leader. The work and spirit of the membership follows that of the leader.

I gave as the reason for the letter the good of the force. I felt it my obligation to the members of the RCMP and the citizens of Canada to share my observations.

I described the management style that I felt was impeding the force. Certainly the senior members were disengaged, and then that cascaded down through the ranks. I spoke of interference in operations. And I also spoke of the partnership-building that's required of senior police leaders.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. McDonell.

Mr. Davies, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Deputy Commissioner Souccar and Commander McDonell, I want to start by thanking both of you on behalf of all Canadians for the courage and the integrity you have shown throughout.

I think what is crystal clear is that your actions in speaking out on behalf of the force that you clearly have devoted so much of your careers to and care so much about are really starting to help restore Canadians' confidence back in the RCMP, where Canadians want it to be.

I want to start with Deputy Commissioner Souccar. You said in your testimony that you described Mr. Elliott's behaviour as long-standing. You said so many people complained about Mr. Elliott's disrespectful behaviour, and you described morale as sinking to an all-time low. My first question is, when did the Minister of Public Safety become aware of these factors, to your knowledge?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I want to thank you for your initial comments. The RCMP is extremely important to me. I have a son who is a member of the RCMP. My wife is employed by the RCMP. That's the only job I really ever had, and I care deeply for the RCMP, as I know Mike does.

This whole affair has been extremely difficult on me, it's been extremely difficult on my wife, and has been hugely difficult on my son as a police officer in the RCMP. So this wasn't done lightly, wasn't taken lightly. It was very difficult to stand up. But courage of convictions has to prevail at the end of the day.

In terms of your question as to when the minister would have become aware of this, I never spoke to the Minister of Public Safety on this matter. The people I spoke to were Patricia Hassard at the Privy Council Office, Marie-Lucie Morin, who is the national security advisor, and Deputy Minister Bill Baker at the Department of Public Safety.