Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Davies, you have five seconds.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thanks.

What are the major challenges that the next commissioner will have to deal with, in your view, in order to get the force's morale back up to a position we all want it in?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Our time is up, so just summarize very quickly, if you can.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think the major challenges are the ones that I set out in my opening comments: a potential board of management; some autonomy for the RCMP to be able to perform its complex policing duties in a more nimble, more flexible way; the ability to deal with problem employees, grievances, discipline matters, so dealing with the RCMP Act; and oversight, transparency, and accountability to the public, which I think will be first and foremost in terms of gaining the public's confidence and being able to admit when an error was made, explaining how it will be dealt with, and showing results at the end of the day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Souccar.

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to both of you for being here.

First, to Deputy Commissioner Souccar, have you had any communication with any of the committee members around the table here prior to this meeting--direct communications, yourself?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

No? Okay.

And Commander, yourself, any direct communications?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

No.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay.

Secondly, is it correct that Public Safety Canada hired a Mr. Reid Morden to conduct a workplace assessment of the senior management? If so, what was the timing of that?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

First of all, that is correct; they hired Reid Morden to complete a workplace assessment. That would have started in early August. I can probably get you the exact date, if you wish, but it started early August.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay. So there was some action taken after the identification of management problems, some action taken to get a private contract in place with a consultant.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

There was action taken after the matter hit the media.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay.

I just wonder how you feel about some of the changes that we know were made within the ranks under Commissioner Elliott's watch. First of all, there was the increase--the significant increase, I believe a 16% increase--to the personnel of the RCMP. That would be one of the changes implemented, I believe. There were also the enhancements and expanded capacities of Depot, and also the pay for new recruits while they're at Depot.

How significant are those changes that were brought into effect?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Those were changes that were on their way to being implemented quite some time prior to the arrival of our then new commissioner in 2007. They were then put into place after his arrival, but the process had started prior to his arrival.

The changes are very significant, absolutely significant. The payment of cadets I think went some way in attracting more people to the RCMP. When I joined, the day I went to Depot, I was a member of the RCMP on full salary. Then there was a period of time when the RCMP felt that “We don't need to pay anyone. They will come.” But in fact it caused significant hardship to individuals who had families and mortgages and so on.

So yes, it went a long way in increasing the recruiting levels. In terms of the additional personnel who came in, absolutely that goes a long way in helping us, especially with expanded mandates such as the Shiprider and a lot of the border initiatives that require additional personnel.

So it goes a long way in helping. It goes a long way in freeing up police officers. Certainly it then helps with morale.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay. So the resources that have been provided over the last couple of years while under our government's watch have been significant.

I have a last question. In your opening comments you talked about an oversight board. I just want you to clarify this for me, because I know we've talked about a civilian oversight board--that's what Bill C-38 on the order paper is about--and you've talked about a board of management. Is that the same as a civilian oversight board? I believe there was a distinction made between the two in your opening remarks, and I'd like to understand what that distinction is.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

The board of management certainly is separate and distinct from a civilian oversight. And it could probably be explained much better by others whose business it is to deal with these matters. My responsibilities, as I said, were federal policing, federal international policing.

A board of management, as I understand it, to the best of my knowledge, would act as a conduit, as a interlocutory, if you will, between the RCMP and government. It would play a challenge function to the commissioner on non-operational matters. I'm not suggesting for a second that a board of management should poke its nose into operational matters, but non-operational administrative matters, and certainly be an arm's-length body to act between the RCMP and government.

Mike can probably explain the special investigative units, the SIU, in Ontario, which is a model that works very well. That body would then look into complaints and serious incidents involving RCMP members, have the power to subpoena individuals, have the power to see documents, have the power to give a level of confidence and comfort to the public that the RCMP is not closed and investigating its own and letting out what it wants to let out.

So it's an outside agency that can provide greater transparency and accountability to the RCMP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Souccar.

Now we'll move back to the Liberals. Five minutes, Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me continue on that point, if I could, but before I do I'd also like to commend you both on your appearance today and your candour in coming forward. I think in the carrying out of your duties there comes a point sometimes when you recognize the only way things are going to change is if you speak out, when it's not possible in the interior. And I think you've described a situation, both of you, where that occurred, where you simply got to a point where you realized the only way change would be possible was if you spoke out, and you did so appropriately to government officials.

The problem I have is with that system, and it's a bit of what you're describing. If people such as you didn't come forward, I personally don't believe we would have seen any change, but because you came forward, we saw change. But it shouldn't be that way, and I'm wondering if the system that you described, having a board of management in place, would have provided the outlet that you needed to get redress. In other words, when you were getting that frustration of not being able to solve this and eventually having to turn, effectively, to the body politic to say that this has to be fixed, that it's toxic and things have gotten out of control, how do we get it so that you can fix that internally without having to go externally?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I believe, Mr. Holland, that this matter could have been dealt with more swiftly and in a much cleaner way had there been a board of management in place. It would have avoided the question that was asked earlier about complaining to government. That's where that board of management would be a conduit, a body between government and the RCMP, and again, this would be perhaps an administrative matter the board of management could then be involved with.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

First of all, it must have been very frustrating that this wasn't in place. How frustrating is it, then, for you and others when things finally get to that point where you feel you have no other recourse, and then you go, as you say you did in July, and have these conversations with the national security advisor for the Prime Minister, and with others, and then nothing happens?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Well, I don't know what was happening behind the scenes. Certainly there could have been a lot happening. Maybe there was; maybe there wasn't. Certainly the matter hit the media.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But did you see a change after that? Were August, September, October, and November looking different from the months that preceded that?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No. In fact it got worse once it got into the media, only because tension grew. Tension grew; camps got created. So that was probably, as I said from day one, the worst thing that could happen to us, if this thing hit the media. It needed to be dealt with quickly, swiftly, and my preference all along was to deal with it behind closed doors, face to face, like any work conflict that happens from time to time, and resolve it in that way. There was no intention of having this become a public show.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I think you made that very clear.

I'm wondering now. You have the title of deputy commissioner, but you said you don't have an office there. Is it your feeling that you have been punished for coming forward and for speaking out?