Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

When, sir, did you notify the Privy Council Office of these concerns, to the best of your knowledge?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I have the exact dates. I can dig them up, but I would say in the first week of July.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Of 2010?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Of 2010. That's when I would have received a call from Patricia Hassard. I was on vacation at the time, on holidays. In fact I was just about to go to brunch with my wife, and I was waiting at the front porch and my phone went off and it was the PCO; it was Patricia Hassard. She wanted to speak to me about that. She told me her dad was ill and she would have to leave to go to London, but Marie-Lucie Morin, who is the national security advisor, wanted to speak with me. I said I'd be available, and within an hour, while at brunch, I received a call from Marie-Lucie Morin.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That's the national security advisor to the Prime Minister?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I want to move on if I could. I have a few questions.

Commander McDonell, last October you wrote to Minister Toews saying that those who came forward to voice their concerns “have simply become sacrificial lambs”.

Deputy Commissioner Souccar, I think you've testified quite frankly today, implying that it's very difficult to speak up in the force when you have a difference of opinion.

And Carleton University Professor Linda Duxbury, who studies the culture of the RCMP, has said, “You're not going to get successful change if the people doing the work don't feel comfortable speaking up.”

To this day, are you aware whether the Minister of Public Safety has issued any directive or position to the members of the force to reassure officers of their abilities to voice their concerns? Are you aware of any memo to that effect or any direction from the Minister of Public Safety?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Not to my knowledge.

Mike.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I'm no longer a member of the RCMP, so I can't answer that question.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Sure.

There was a workplace assessment done by former CSIS director Reid Morden, and he found, among other things, that the slow pace of reforms frustrated some Mounties. I think you both already touched on that.

We know that the labour relations reform that was necessitated by the Ontario Supreme Court decision in MacDonnell--no relation, I take it--in June 2010.... It was introduced by this government in June 2010. The civilian oversight of complaints against the police, Bill C-38, was introduced in June 2010, and there's been no movement by this government since then as those two bills languish on the order paper.

I wonder if you could comment on how important you think it is to start uplifting the morale of the force that those two pieces of legislation be brought forward and passed?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Well, I think it's important in times of change, and the RCMP certainly is in times of change. Change has to be a constant. As soon as you stop changing, you're stagnating. You need to always look to improve the organization.

In terms of these two items, I think labour relations is an important one. We have a staff relations representative program. We have the association. I think at some point we'll need to move forward.

I'm not the best person to speak on that topic. Our deputy in human resources would probably be best versed to speak on those issues.

Certainly when you have an organization in need of change, the pace of change has to speed up. That was one of the issues that was raised: the pace of change has been very slow.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Commander McDonell, you have a quote where you referred to the “endemic level of sycophantism that is occurring amongst the commissioner's senior management team”. That's how you described it.

I'm wondering how important it is, in both of your views, that there be a process of promoting from within that would not rely on sycophantism but would be more of a merit-based process. In your views, how important is getting a hold on that issue to the success of the next RCMP commissioner?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I've always thought, as a leader, that it was good to surround yourself with people who did not think like you or who had a different experience so that the decisions at the end of the day were well informed and looked at from different views. I've always enjoyed a good challenge. I found that the challenge process was muted with my experience on the senior management team.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm sorry, you said "was muted"?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

Yes.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

If I may add to this, I think the ability to speak truth to power, and the environment that must be created in order to speak truth to power, is essential.

Secondly, as Mike said, and I will maybe elaborate on it a bit, if a leader in any organization is not willing to listen to different points of views from his or her own, then they don't need anybody around them.

As far as I'm concerned, I appreciate a challenge; I appreciate a different point of view. At the end of the day, the leader will make the decision. That's a given. But you're best equipped if you've been given various options, hopefully ones you have not thought of, that are different from your mindset, so that at the end of the day you as a leader can make the ultimate decision knowing you've explored all the options. To not have that...you don't need anybody else around you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Souccar.

We'll now move to the government. Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to both witnesses for your attendance here this morning.

I understand you're both here under summons.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. McDonell?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And it was the opposition parties that summoned your attendance here this morning? Or did the summons come from the clerk?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

The summons came from the clerk.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

Deputy Commissioner Souccar, you talked about the importance of respect and compassion. I think you cited in your opening comments that they are core values of the RCMP. Did I hear that correctly?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.