Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I was removed from my position, as everyone knows, because that was made public on November 4, I believe. Since then, we have.... I'm going to read you this: I am currently on annual leave, and issues relating to my appointment with the RCMP have been resolved to the mutual satisfaction of the parties.

The agreement is confidential, so I leave it that. If there are any probing questions, I'll ask for the opportunity to seek legal counsel.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay. That's fair.

You mentioned your conversations with the deputy commissioner. He asked you about frequency, and you were in the process of answering how frequent the type of situation was that you were dealing with. Do you want to just finish your answer there? How frequent was what you were dealing with? He asked you if it was every six months or every three months, and you started to give a response. I'm just wondering if you could finish that response.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

My response was that sometimes it was on a daily basis. Sometimes it was on a weekly basis, but it was very regular. It wasn't an unusual situation; it was becoming a very usual situation. That's when he asked me if others had observed it and said he would want to speak to others. I told him to tell me how many and at what rank, and they would be there, because I'd had enough complaints.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just to both of you, would you say that those concerns were pervasive--in other words, you were hearing that throughout senior management?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think it was pervasive with respect to the individuals who had dealings with him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We're going to go back to the government side and then to Ms. Mourani, but I would just like to ask one question, and it comes from what we've heard from the opposition parties.

Mr. Souccar, you said that your initial phone call was in July 2010. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

It was very early July 2010.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. The question that the government wasn't acting.... But on July 30, 2010, the Minister of Public Safety announced that Reid Morden--so it wasn't August, it was still in July--the former director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, would head up the RCMP workplace assessment. Would you say that is a timely response?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think the matter hit the media. My first phone call would have been on July 2 or 3, I would say. The matter hit the media on July 29, and shortly after it hit the media, that's when the workplace assessment was announced.

You said July 30. That's probably right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

The individual who headed it up was named, so the planning must have been in place to make that announcement on the 29th or the 30th.

Mr. Lobb, I'm taking some of your time there. I apologize. Go ahead.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It's okay.

First of all, I'd like to thank both of you gentlemen for your years of service. I guess cumulatively they have almost reached 70 years. Certainly it's a service to the country. I think, Mr. Souccar, this is a family trade, apparently, with your son and your wife also involved with the RCMP.

Over the last three or three and a half years of which both of you gentlemen were senior managers within the RCMP, can you tell Canadians what you believe to be some of the successes you've had? You both have mentioned that you want to move forward and move on. Maybe you can tell Canadians what you feel are some of the successes the RCMP has had in the last couple of years.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

There certainly have been a lot of successes over the last number of years. The area for which I was responsible is easy for me to speak about. I only speak about it because I'm most familiar with it. We've had numerous international organized crime investigations that were successfully concluded. We've had numerous national security counter-terrorism investigations—the most recent one completed here in Ottawa. Everyone knows about the Toronto one. We had the Winter Olympics, which was at the time the largest major event the RCMP had ever taken part in, and I believe that was done very successfully. The G-8 and G-20 then became the largest security event ever to take place. Operationally, these would be the successes that come to my mind.

Mike, do you want to add any more?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

For me, as responsible for national security, it was the fact that there has not been a successful terrorist attack in Canada. I think that speaks to the integrity and the good working relationship that the RCMP has with many other partners nationally and internationally, as well as our role in the community, getting back out to the community and more integrated with our policing partners. I can speak to Ontario, the integration that we enjoy and the partnerships that we enjoy.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

If I could, another one that is tragic—however, it was dealt with in a way that I think is commendable—was the aftermath of the earthquake in Haiti, where we lost two of our members, Chief Superintendent Doug Coates and Sergeant Mark Gallagher. We immediately mobilized teams 24 hours a day to get our people out, to get new people in, to get victim identification specialists in. There were many fundraising events that the RCMP took part in to help the Haitian community in Haiti. I've been down there myself to witness the tragedy. That's one of the advantages of the RCMP and its diverse mandate, and how wide it is, that we're able to mobilize personnel.

The Winter Olympics, the G-8, the G-20: being able to get resources from across the country from the RCMP and from our partner agencies I think was essential to the success of such events.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly, Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I know you mentioned a couple of times, just maybe perhaps more succinctly, if there were a couple of recommendations to have moving forward for senior management to deal with issues—because they're going to come up, there are going to be issues always in management, whether it's one way or the other—what would you like to see moving forward as a couple of recommendations to help deal with these issues internally?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think to help the organization internally, you need to ensure that there is trust in the organization externally. That comes with transparency, with accountability, and that oversight body I think would go a long way in providing confidence to the public to be able to not simply see what the RCMP says it has done but to have an arm's-length, outside body overseeing our activities in terms of complaints, in terms of misconduct, and so on, dealing with the matters.

Personally, I'm all for it. I've always been all for it. There's nothing to hide. What do you need? We'll provide it to you in order that you can do a thorough investigation. As I said, it's not very different from what the Ontario model of what the SIU is, which I believe works very well and gives that confidence to the public.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Souccar.

Now we'll go to Madame Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Souccar, earlier, you said that the next commissioner should not be the government's lap dog, among other things. Do you think Mr. Elliott was the government's lap dog?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, I don't believe so.

I do not think so. That is certainly not my opinion.

I never said and I don't believe that Bill Elliott was acting on direction from the government. He certainly was aware of government, probably more so than any other commissioner that we've ever had, simply because that's his background. He comes from the bureaucracy. I think he worked as a chief of staff for Mr. Mazankowski back then. So that's his background, that's his mindset. That's not necessarily a bad thing to be aware of, but certainly you would have to be able to act independently of it in the best interests of the organization.

So to answer your question, no, I don't believe that Bill Elliott was a puppet on a string, if you will, for the government.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

What do you make of his sudden decision to step down, just a few days before this committee's meeting.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Normally, a commissioner's mandate spans three to five years. It is not the average. He would have been on the job four years in July. I think it will take at least six months to select another commissioner. The last time around, I believe, the selection process began in December 2006—

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

But do you not find that....?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

—and ended in July 2007. So it takes at least six months.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand that, but it is still quite the coincidence that he decided to step down a few days before this committee's meeting.

Earlier, I asked you whether there was a point of contention between you and Mr. Elliott in terms of how the RCMP was being managed. Could you briefly tell me what it was, please?