Evidence of meeting #53 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was powers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay, but you will agree that without safety and security, there is no enjoyment of life, liberty, security of the person, pursuit of happiness, or anything.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
That's a foundational thing. I don't want to walk into the “baby and the bathwater” thing, where we throw out the baby with the bathwater trying to keep us so secure. You can have a total security state where we give up all rights. We would be physically very secure, but I think in a democracy such as ours we decide to take some risks in society. We all agree to take some risks. Otherwise, we'd just have the police stopping everyone on the street making sure that they're not criminals. We tolerate some amount of risk in society. That is the nature of living in the world. This building could collapse tomorrow. There's a probability of risk. We built it to 98% but not to 100%, because you couldn't do that. That's just the nature of life.
February 10th, 2011 / 9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Are you or any members of the panel aware that on January 20 of this year, an individual was arrested in my city, the city of Edmonton? He was wanted by U.S. authorities based on terrorist charges and charges for murder based on actions that allegedly occurred in Afghanistan.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
I don't know the details of it, but I'm generally familiar. I heard about it on the....
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Is anybody else aware of that situation?
Now, with respect to this concept of preventative arrest, I'm troubled by a number of your comments, Mr. Mia, and also by yours, Ms. Cheung. You state that this proposed legislation, Bill C-17, is not necessary and is open to abuse. You cite correctly a number of Criminal Code provisions that deal with charges that can be laid for conspiracy and for attempts. But you'll have to agree with me that those existing provisions of the Criminal Code deal specifically with issues and allegations that have occurred in the past.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
No.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
I don't agree with that.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You believe that the existing provisions of the Criminal Code will allow the law authorities, be it the RCMP or CSIS, to detain an individual based on information regarding something that might occur in the future?
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
Yes, they will, if someone's in preparation of a criminal offence. If I'm in a conspiracy with someone to blow up Parliament, and the police have information on it, they don't have to wait for me to blow Parliament up. That is criminal law 101.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Now with respect to the abuse issue, this legislation—essentially the same legislation—was brought in by a different government after the tragic events of 9/11. We've talked about that legislation. It was used only once in different circumstances, in the Air India inquiry. You'll have to agree with me that this type of legislation, at least historically, has not been abused by Canadian law enforcement.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
I'll agree with you that it's been used once. Yes, that's a fact, and the Supreme Court ruled on that case. I would not agree with you that it has not been abused.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
If it had been abused, I would have thought that there would have been multiple deployments of this legislation, and that tens, if not hundreds, of individuals would have been detained and brought before judges to provide information on what they might know. But that didn't happen.
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
I believe it's a matter of soft abuse. The goal is not to scoop up all sorts of people, although that is a risk we're concerned about. The real risk is the insidious nature that these powers may acquire. We've seen it. Our organization, the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group, CARE Can, and other civil liberty groups have heard this from the community. I've heard it myself. I have a colleague, a lawyer who works with community members who get calls from CSIS and the RCMP. Not every single officer or agent does this, but we have heard that it's used. It says if you don't work with me.... It is especially applied to vulnerable people, refugees or migrants.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You're not talking about the former Bill C-36, you're talking about other tactics—
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
I'm talking about Bill C-36, sir.
Conservative
Chair, Advocacy and Research Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
It has been the law for ten years. Only two provisions have been sunsetted. Bill C-36 is a whack of legislation. I have a concerns about that. And Bill C-36 implemented inchoate offences, a whole lot of them. Facilitation, enabling, participation—these are offences that are far removed from actual criminal activity. I agree with you that we need to catch people when they're preparing something. We have to prevent harm. But how do you think the Toronto 18...? Facilitation, participation in a terrorist group, combined with a conspiracy to commit a criminal act—those are all there. They're still in law. Those provisions from the Anti-terrorism Act are in the Criminal Code right now. I have them here if you want to look at them.
These two are the excessive provisions. Even the government of the day recognized they were so exceptional that they needed to be subject to a sunset. But if we keep renewing them, knee-jerk and ad hoc, we will have a permanent situation.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Vernon, you no doubt are watching with great interest the events as they unfold in Egypt.
Director, Government Relations and International Affairs, Canadian Jewish Congress
Yes, of course.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
We all hope that the transition of the current regime is peaceful and that it leads to a regime based on respect for the democratic rights of its citizens. But I guess we all fear that this may not be the case. Is that correct?
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I have a point of order. We're studying Bill C-17, the Anti-terrorism Act. How is a question on the political events in Egypt relevant to this issue?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I gave Madame Mourani some latitude.
Mr. Rathgeber, would you bring this thing back as soon as you can?
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I'm almost out of time, and I'm just curious to know what you believe the risks are for Canadians and for your community within Canada if events unfold in Egypt as they did in, say, Iran a couple of decades ago.
Director, Government Relations and International Affairs, Canadian Jewish Congress
The fundamental thing that we're concerned about, aside from the possible risks to the safety and security of Israel, is the development of rogue regimes in thrall to Iran. We've seen the results of that through their proxies in that region and through their state sponsorship of terrorism in the Middle East and internationally. Let's not forget that the bombing of the Jewish community centre in Buenos Aires in the 1990s has been directly placed at the feet of Hezbollah, acting on behalf of Iran.
So the greatest threat to our community, and to all Canadians, is unstable regimes committed to systems that are antithetical to our way of life.