Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2011

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister Toews and Mr. Head, for being here.

Two days ago, when we were asking for the cost implications of Bill C-59, Ms. Campbell said it was a cabinet secret. So we couldn't know the cost of Bill C-59 before we voted on it.

Mr. Minister, you said that your government--and these are your words--is clear and up front, and you said that your projections are fiscally sound. Why won't your government tell parliamentarians how much your bill is going to cost before we vote on it at second and third reading and it passes in the House of Commons?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

To the extent that we can make accurate disclosures of costs, we do.

What I was trying to demonstrate in my prior comments to Mr. Holland is that it's sometimes very difficult to make meaningful projections, as diligent as people are at Correctional Services Canada. In this particular case, they had projected 1,280. That was a realistic assumption.

I think that given some of the other factors--we're not creating new criminals when we're passing this legislation, but we're dealing with the same individuals over and over again--the 390 seems to be what it is. There might be a wave coming a little later. We don't know.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Minister, you do have the right to fulsome answers, but my question is on Bill C-59 and on telling us when the budgeting is.

Mr. Head just told us, the day after we voted, that Bill C-59 cost $40 million. Is it not a cabinet secret today?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm not sure why it was said that it was a cabinet secret. I don't know. I can say that in respect of whether or not it was disclosable, Mr. Head has the information, and he has provided that information to you.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Two days before parliamentarians are going to vote on a bill, your government will not tell us what it will cost. Mr. Minister, you have seen the media. Your government has repeatedly said that the cost of these programs is a matter of cabinet secrecy.

I have never seen you come to the media and say, “No, that's not the case. Canadian taxpayers can know how much it's going to cost. It's going to cost $40 million.” You didn't say that before we voted.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I can tell you one thing, Mr. Davies. I don't go and seek out the media on these issues.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

My question is not about seeking out, it's about disclosing to taxpayers.

Mr. Minister, your position is that these costs are justified. If I can fairly characterize your position, it's that the costs to society of crime, the social costs, are--and I agree with you--serious and in some cases justify your program. Well, if that's the case, why don't you tell Canadian taxpayers what the full costs of your crime agenda are, if you believe they're justified?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

We will disclose that as soon as we can give you accurate figures. Again, as I've indicated, the accuracy of figures is sometimes very difficult to forecast. So we give figures when they are accurate.

You can see what Mr. Holland has tried to do—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I prefer to stay out of Mr. Holland's—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

—in respect of the $90 million and the $2 billion. That kind of inappropriate use of figures goes on constantly. So we're very careful, before we release figures, to ensure that they bear some resemblance to reality.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

But surely, Mr. Minister, before you introduce legislation in the House that is going to impact our prison population, you estimate how much that's going to cost, do you not? Are you passing legislation when you don't know what it's going to cost?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, what we do know is that the cost of crime to Canadians on an annual basis is at least $70 billion. That's a Department of Justice figure. I look at the figure, $70 billion, and the initiatives we are taking are well worth addressing that issue.

Now, as for how many additional prisoners there are going to be--and that's one of the best ways to figure out what the cost is in a government sense--look at those forecasts. Had I come to you and said our estimates are 1,290, and therefore the cost is x, and then I came back later and I said it was actually only 390, and therefore our cost is...then you would have said that I had misled the House.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

No, I wouldn't have—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, you're essentially saying exactly that.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Minister, tell Canadians right now, based on what you know, the total cost of your crime agenda in prison costs for the next year or the next five years. Tell us what the total costs are of all of your bills as you know it today.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Part of that will be disclosed in the budget process. I'm not going to release it prior—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That's a secret too, is it? I'm giving you the opportunity to level with Canadians. Tell Canadians now how much.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Wait. Part of that is in the budget process. Is the budget a secret before it's released? Absolutely. You know what happens when you release information in a budget before it's released? You know what happens to ministers. Given that, I will ask Mr. Head to advise you in respect of any figures that we can release without compromising the budget.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm not getting an answer, so I'll just move to Mr. Head.

With respect to double-bunking, the minister said that double-bunking was a “reasonable and responsible measure of housing inmates”. Yet I've seen a directive from your office that says double-bunking is not an appropriate way to house inmates. Is that correct, Mr. Head?

[Don Head]

Let's put it in perspective. Our ideal situation from a correctional perspective is one offender per cell. The reality is that at times we have to house more people than we have cells. If we set out the rules that govern how we manage double-bunking, then there's nothing unreasonable about it, as long as we stay on top of it and try to move to a more ideal state.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Minister, an internal document, “Strategic Plan for Human Resource Management from Correctional Services”, says that following legislative changes preliminary forecasts show the CSC inmate population growing by up to 4,000 in the next two to three years. Do you dispute that number, sir?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

As I said, the estimate for this last year was 1,290; the actual is 390.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So what about this figure for the next two to three years?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

What is that figure in respect of? What years?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Two bills, Bill S-2 and Bill C-25.