Public Safety Committee on Dec. 6th, 2011

[Ross Toller]

I don't believe that document would actually refer to those who had taken programs of substance abuse, exactly. If you're talking about general admission rates, there have been some increases and some warrant of a committal. Again, it needs to be contextualized relative to the actual numbers there.

What I can show you is that for those who have taken substance abuse programs, there is a strong correlation relative to not returning, not recidivating as much as those who have not taken the programs from the control groups on all levels of parole.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

In your testimony a little earlier, you mentioned harm reduction. Harm reduction and prevention are two entirely different things. When we talk about prevention, we're talking about, for example, preventing drugs from entering the correctional environment. When we talk about harm reduction, we mean, for example, reducing the harmful effects of drugs, like preventing people from contracting HIV, hepatitis, etc.

I'd like you to expand a little on harm reduction. You said that it is applied in prison. Could you describe what is actually done in the prisons with regard to harm reduction?

[Ross Toller]

Yes, there are a couple of things.

In the earlier starts at intake, assessments are made relative to the properties that may be associated with drug use or drug activity. In our case-management processes we look at utilization of substance abuse, associates...that ties into the case-management process. What needs to be addressed is identified through to the programs. In heath care centres, nurses have pamphlets about harmful utilization of drugs, everything from what it does to your body to understanding the effects it can have on your family as well.

I mentioned the methadone program. That is one harm reduction element that is used. We also have bleach available for inmates in the event that they do become able to access some injection types of areas. Condoms have been issued, are available in private family visits. In some cases, parole officers moving out into the community meet with families for those who have high rates of HIV or have hepatitis C.

Again, the programming piece in its purest form is a bit of a harm prevention type of activity, to reduce the demand from that perspective. If you get people off of that particular drug, the demand diminishes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Leef, please, for five minutes.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Toller and Mr. Wheeler, for coming today.

Congratulations on the investment in the programming aspect of corrections. As Mr. Norlock said, I think some of the information you've provided here demonstrates quite a success story.

We did hear a bit of evidence in the past about it being tough to measure fully active participation rates, meaning some inmates may take programs sort of to check the box off, and measuring their willingness or their active participation in a program may be a little bit challenging. Would that be an accurate statement, that it's a challenge to fully get...? I recognize it may not be a significant number, but are there some in a program who are doing it to check off the box?

[Ross Toller]

I think you're always going to have some elements of that. Some people will take it.

Our staff, our parole officer group, are highly trained at assessing levels of motivation, and have continued dialogue with inmates throughout their whole tenure of their process.

To go back to the question mentioned by the honourable member about the human resource component of our correctional program people, our program delivery officers are highly trained. They go through an accreditation process. They're trained to look for that. They look to measure results along the way.

Aside from that, cutting through those who are maybe doing it to play the game, again, on any daily basis, inmates that leave that program and staff speak to each other. So the program officer who might see things looking very well in this particular session, once they leave that particular program correctional officers will report on behaviour that they will see. Other staff in the work areas will report on behaviours they see that are inconsistent with what's being demonstrated. Those get thrown back to the program delivery officer in terms of communications, and multi-disciplinary groups will sit down and discuss those particular levels of activity.

There are many check valves put in place for those who maybe get in initially to do the check box. I would even add that in some cases we've seen that inmates have acknowledged that. They joined up originally just to look for the check box, but sometimes through some of the peer support things I've mentioned they basically started to delve into this more, to look to change their behaviour for realistic purposes.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Right. So your front-line officers, from what you said, play a fairly significant role in the continuance of those programs.

[Ross Toller]

Absolutely.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Okay, great.

You mentioned on page 3 in your report about developing and implementing specialized programs for aboriginal people and women and female offenders because they have unique patterns of substance abuse, and cultural and gender-specific programming is more appropriate for them.

Could you quickly give us a high-level overview of some of the types of programs that are offered for female offenders, both incarceration, post-release...? Could you maybe give a quick bit of information on the success rates you see come out of those specific programs for those groups? And are there any different vulnerabilities that the aboriginal population or the female population face compared to your white male offender population?

[Ross Toller]

I'll give maybe a quick overview, as you mention.

With the aboriginal population, we do find cultural and background areas that need to be contextualized and considered. For example, inmates who may have been reared in a traditional hunting and fishing type of a village, or inmates who have had a history of residential school activities with their families, or inmates who have lived on a reserve who haven't been exposed to the traditional white person's schooling, etc., need to be contextualized in their capability to respond to a type of a program and in their ability to comprehend, or there are cultural differences that we need to consider. We have an aboriginal directorate that's basically dedicated specifically to aboriginal areas.

In our program development phase we will look at using such a cultural background with the utilization of elders who will come in and provide us with the understanding or gaps that may be missed as a result of cathartic change for aboriginal women.

We also have in our litany of institutions a devoted institution in Saskatchewan, the Okimaw Ohci, as it's called, specifically for aboriginal women. Again, it's a cultural healing lodge centre that is very rich in the spiritual and cultural understanding of aboriginal ways and aboriginal teachings that we will use for our aboriginal women.

In terms of some of the programs that have been developed that we've used, we've drawn upon some of the experts in the aboriginal area. In some of the contracts that we will use, as Mr. Wheeler mentioned, in the community we will go to aboriginal agencies to look at what works from their perspective, what is it that we're just not applying in the conventional methodology towards these activities. In some cases, with some of our contracts, our programs are developed by Stan Daniels Healing Centre...developed by aboriginal people for aboriginal people, with similar results.

In terms of results, success rates for women, I don't have the exact figures. If you gave me a minute, I could probably go through them or get them in later on. They tend to be more successful on releases in terms of their day parole. They tend to maintain themselves in the community much longer than some of our male populations. Again, you have to remember the numbers are smaller in comparative terms, so there may be some skewing there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Toller. Sorry we went a little over there.

Mr. Sandhu.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Toller and Mr. Wheeler, thank you for being here today.

I have very short questions and they are pretty direct. I heard “bleach”. What is bleach used for?

[Ross Toller]

Bleach is used in this example. If an inmate had come in contact with a needle and wanted to use a needle for injection purposes that we would not know about, he would use bleach to clean the needle.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

In other words, bleach is provided by CSC as a harm reduction material.

[Ross Toller]

Yes.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Okay.

You mentioned there is a very high rate of HIV and AIDS in the prisons and a low rate outside of the prisons, compared with different populations. Why is that so?

[Ross Toller]

I think most of the offenders who come to us have lived high-risk types of lifestyles in the past, and I think we just get a higher rate of those particular individuals coming into our environment at intake.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

We've already established that in order to reduce harm, we provide bleach to clean non-existent needles that may be out in prisons. You mentioned also that you haven't taken the approach where you can provide clean needles to the prisons. How was that decision made?

[Ross Toller]

A number of years back there had been deliberations made on looking at this from a program perspective. Consultations had taken place with public health agencies. Consultations had taken place with our labour groups. Consultations had taken place with medical communities. At that time, weighing all the advantages and disadvantages, it was determined that in our environment it would not be suitable to proceed with that.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Would you agree in general that outside of prisons, clean needles are used by people to reduce the chances of HIV being transmitted from one person to another?

[Ross Toller]

I'm aware of some outside clinics where needles are used for that purpose, yes.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I want to go back to where you mentioned laundry services, certification. Are certifications done through CSC or outside agencies?

[Ross Toller]

It's through outside agencies. I apologize, I don't know the exact name, but it's a linen certification group. I believe it's through a community college.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

What obstacles do prisoners have to face once they go outside to get jobs in hotels or to work in different organizations? Almost everyone checks the criminal record, so is that a huge obstacle if the person doesn't have a pardon?

[Ross Toller]

It is an obstacle. Often your résumé carries with it what you were doing for the last two or three or four years. But as Mr. Wheeler and others mentioned, with some of the activities we've undertaken with community employment counsellors and some of the partnerships we've formed, people are aware of records and do take the opportunity to work with our inmates. Our main objective is to return these offenders as Canadian taxpayers, and I think many see it in that particular fashion.