Public Safety Committee on June 21st, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go back to Mr. Sandhu.

You'll do a split in this five-minute round.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

That's right. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the things pointed out in the Auditor General's report was that the government has failed to negotiate a contract with the provinces. Also, it has failed to define the roles and responsibilities of the RCMP as to how they're going to be funded. They have failed to negotiate that with the provinces over the years. That has been consistent over many, many years, and that's one of the major findings of the AG's report.

Here's my question. In the 2007 criteria, there's a specific mention of “experience in multipartite negotiations and liaison in order to develop productive relationships with other federal law enforcement agencies”, provinces and municipalities.... If one of the roles for the new commissioner is that they are going to be able to negotiate roles and responsibilities, define them with the provinces, and negotiate a funding formula whereby we can have a functional force that is able to fight organized crime and the drug wars out there, why is this leaving out having the experience to deal with the provinces and municipalities? I don't see that in the new criteria.

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I'll start that, and I'll split my answer with my colleague here.

Under “Experience”, we are looking for experience in building and maintaining productive and effective multipartite relationships with partner organizations and diverse stakeholders. I believe the selection committee felt it wasn't necessary to go into a great level of detail because there are many partners and many different organizations that the RCMP would consider part of their stakeholders. I believe the experience requirement is there even if it does not particularly specify that level of government.

[Graham Flack]

With respect to the contract policing negotiations, there is a very detailed contract in place with contract policing jurisdictions, and this is one in a long line of those. Contract policing has been in place in Canada for over a century now and has been governed by contractual relationships with the provinces in terms of how those services are delivered. We are doing a major revision of that agreement in these contract negotiations we are currently undertaking in the province.

The Auditor General's focus was on federal policing services, many of which are provided not necessarily on a cost recovery basis to provinces. I give the example of forensic science as one where over time the federal government has been providing services to other jurisdictions, and the Auditor General called for further clarification around who the payers of those services were going to be and on what basis those services were going to be provided. So there is a major renewal on the contract policing side in terms of the relationship with the provinces, but there is also an enhanced look at federal policing services to define what those core services are and how they are going to be funded.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Sandhu.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's pretty clear this process is being rushed here. I think we're going to be choosing our next commissioner, so we need to slow down a little bit and flesh out the criteria a little bit. I point to what Madam Hassard said, that great details are not part of the criteria.

At this point I'd like to move a motion that the committee hold an additional meeting to hear from witnesses outside the Department of Public Safety and PCO for the purpose of studying potential selection criteria for the next RCMP commissioner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Sandhu.

That does go contrary to the motion we just finished passing at our last meeting, so it speaks contrary to the motion that we're operating under here today. I'll leave that with the clerk.

Do we have a copy of the original motion. Can I see your motion? Do you have it written out?

I've been checking with the clerk to make sure that's in order. The difficulty here is that the motion we're operating under today is the motion that we have one meeting to discuss this. Because of the timelines here, I'll just refer to the parliamentary expert here.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Andrew Bartholomew Chaplin]

I would see it as not being receivable because they have agreed. It does--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's all I need to hear.

The motion is out of order based on the fact that we've just passed the former motion.

Your time is up, so we'll move to Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today.

I have some degree of knowledge on policing issues, having spent 30 years with one of the country's major police forces. Whenever we make comments, we need to take a look at a person who will be leading one of the most trusted and respected police forces on the face of God's good earth. One of the first things I look at is what the vision is for the RCMP.

I notice in the first part of the vision statement of the RCMP that it is an organization that is committed to “be a progressive, proactive and innovative organization”. When I look at those words, I can think of many, many different facets, but one of the things that comes to mind in this ever-changing world, especially when you begin to get up in age a little bit, is the pace of change that society goes through.

Having begun my first career in the seventies, the changes seem to be speeding up, especially for those who had 25 years more experience than I, but then near the end of my career the change was, one would say, almost exponential.

You used to be told there are two sure things in life, death and taxes, but there's actually a third, and that's what we really try to deal with all over our society, and that is change.

I notice in the criteria, under “Abilities”—and it has to do with the vision for the RCMP—is the “Ability to anticipate emerging issues”, and of course “manage risk”. We all do that in various ways.

But with regard to “lead organizational change”, I wonder what, Ms. Hassard or Mr. Flack, you can add. What do you see, what do you look for, what will be looked for in the individuals and their background and what they say to you in answer to questions that leads you to believe they are very adaptable to change and able to perform within the vision statement and able to produce an organization that is able to adapt to change?

[Graham Flack]

Maybe I can start by talking about the context, and I think you've rightly identified how it's changing.

It's changing in terms of an increase in the complexity of the law enforcement environment, the degree to which many of the major criminal challenges we're facing involve an international dimension, the appearance of a cyber dimension linked to many of those crimes. Take child sexual exploitation as an example and how that has been transformed by the availability of materials on the Internet, how that has transformed how you police that, in terms of the need to involve other international organizations because the crime knows no borders. And as you rightly highlighted, it's not just the complexity increasing, but the speed with which organizations are adapting in response to all these new changes is also increasing.

So it's both more complex and a higher pace of change, which means it's very difficult to encapsulate what an organization should look like in some kind of static sense. One of the criteria for the commissioner, as you've pointed out, and indeed for the organization, is a need for it to show a great deal of dynamism because it is going to have to continually respond to the changing environment.

There may be a couple of other examples there.

Even in the last decade the RCMP had record class sizes, in terms of the number of individuals Depot was graduating. So there's a big input in terms of new recruits coming on board as a result of policing demands increasing, not just at the federal level but at the provincial and municipal levels as well. But in addition, as in many policing organizations in the country, there's a demographic that is retiring very quickly at the senior executive level, which puts real stresses on all of our policing organizations that are seeing that demographic change, where the senior leadership cadre is leaving.

So it's a very, very dynamic environment into which the new commissioner will have to operate, which is becoming even more dynamic. That's why, as you've highlighted throughout the criteria that are laid out, innovation and the ability to operate in a dynamic environment are critical, because it's very difficult for any of us to clearly identify in a static way all the challenges the organization is going to face in a concrete way. Those challenges are dynamic and evolving.

And this is not unique to the RCMP. Certainly when we have conversations with other police organizations internationally or with our provincial colleagues, we hear this is being felt across the board.

So I think you're right in highlighting the dynamism of the environment and the need for a leader who doesn't just have a vision but has a vision that builds in innovation and dynamism in the drive of the organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Norlock.

Mr. Garrison, you have five minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today.

Our concern is that the selection process be both thorough and transparent, as we see this as essential to ensuring the confidence and trust of the public in the RCMP and also to restoring the confidence of the rank and file in the RCMP in their leadership.

My own experience, at the local level, in hiring a chief constable as a member of a police board and also making recommendations for policing in Afghanistan for an international human rights organization, taught me that there needs to be a balance in criteria between management and leadership. The criteria before us are very heavily weighted toward management, so I'd like to ask two questions that I think are important to restoring public confidence in terms of leadership.

The first is a very specific question. Do the witnesses see any downside in adding a criterion very specifically stating that we would like to see an RCMP commissioner with a demonstrated understanding of and commitment to victims' rights?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Hassard.

[Patricia Hassard]

I don't think it's an omission in the selection criteria, but by the same token, if this committee is going to make that suggestion, then we will consider it seriously.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you.

I have a second question, then, with regard to diversity.

I would have to say, personally, that I'm disappointed in the change in the draft to take out the very specific mentions of diversity. As drafted, I think the criteria now seem to imply that diversity is an external issue. It talks about diversity issues as if they're outside the RCMP. So, once again, my question is, would there be any downside to adding a specific criterion that would ask that the successful candidate have a demonstrated commitment to continuing progress in gender equity and diversity within the RCMP?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Hassard.

[Patricia Hassard]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not think that one is a necessary addition. The RCMP is subject to the overall government policies under which the government is committed to employment equity and ensuring that appointments, both within the RCMP and outside, are reflective of Canada's diversity.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

May I pass the rest of my time to Mr. Chicoine?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes.

Mr. Chicoine, you have three minutes.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I would like to ask a question about the process that was chosen. The criteria are pretty similar to the ones that existed during the previous commissioner's term. The criteria are exactly the same. So maybe it's in the process that there have been some gaps in the past.

Do you intend to do things differently than in the previous process, in 2007?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, what I can say is that we have actually substantially changed the selection criteria. I think it is an indication that we are looking forward to the future for the type of leadership the RCMP requires in its current and future operating environment.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

If I've understood correctly, there are different criteria. Things are going to be done differently than in the previous process.

[Patricia Hassard]

Yes, I would summarize by saying that there are at least seven new criteria in the selection criteria for 2011.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

How will you integrate these criteria into the new selection process?