Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was restitution.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Okay.
My question is more of a general one, and I suppose you don't need to answer it.
I'm told that when it comes to a government bill, a government bill will go through the Department of Justice and will be analyzed in terms of its consistency with the charter. Is that correct?
Every bill has to be vetted that way?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
That's correct.
An assessment is done of the charter implications of a variety of legislation. That advice is provided to the minister and not to others.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I'm told that the modus operandi is a little different, in that it used to require the analysis of.... It would put up a very high bar of conformity with the charter, and that may have been reduced in the last while. Can you answer that?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
It has not been reduced.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Okay, well then, I'll check my information source.
There was a big discussion here at the last meeting about the civil rights of offenders, because we had a lawyer here who specialized in those cases, which sort of relates to the whole issue of how you get the money from a settlement to the creditors.
When an offender wins a settlement, does that money end up in the offender's personal bank account at the moment? Is that how it would work at the moment: it would end up in the offender's personal bank account as opposed to some account he or she may have within the penitentiary or Correctional Services Canada? Or are all the offender's assets under the purview of Correctional Services Canada?
At what point are some of the offender's assets outside the realm of the Correctional Service Canada or of the government? I'm not a lawyer, so that's why I'm asking this question which you might find a little simplistic.
Are all of the offender's assets suddenly taken away from him or her and are under the control of Correctional Service Canada?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful. I am a lawyer, and it's not whether you are or you aren't: It's the aspect of correctional law and the administration of the Correctional Conditional Release Act, and so on, which is best answered by our colleagues from Correctional Service Canada. I'm not aware exactly of how the offender's assets are managed while they are in custody.
I think it's a bit of a mix of what you suggested. Some things may remain personal, and others are dealt with by the offender management system.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
It seems to me that what you're saying in regard to this bill being a bit vague is that we have to clear up the path, the money, from a court order that benefits the offender. We have to clarify the trail of that money: where it goes, who's going to manage it, and who's going to distribute it to the people listed in the ranking of creditors. It that what you're saying?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
My understanding of the purpose of this bill is that for claims against the crown brought by an offender related to their status as an offender, rather than the offender benefiting without paying their debts, the offender should first satisfy their obligations to others, which are likely related to that offence. So an outstanding restitution—
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I understand that, but regarding the administration of the payment, how does that money actually get from point A to point B? How does it actually get to the victim and to the spouse and the dependants? That seems to be the core issue here.
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
That is one of the details that seem a bit vague in the bill. But again, I think it's capable of being administered by the correctional service. How does it get from their hands to the victim to the province—
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
The point underlying one of my first questions was whether the offender can then say, look, this is my money legally—I don't want to use the word constitutionally—so if you want to get your hands on it to distribute to these creditors, you have to go through the court rather than just automatically disbursing it to the creditors. Is it possible that somebody would raise this issue?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Well, these are amounts that, in a way, have been through the court in the first place. These are amounts owing to other people. So take for example a restitution order that a victim is awarded. The victim could enter that order in a civil court and that would be a judgment they could execute against. So if the offender or anybody else.... They would have that court order, they could execute against it, and they could ask the sheriff to seize assets, seize bank accounts, garnish wages, use a variety of civil remedies to enforce that order.
This is just a bit of a shortcut, perhaps you could call it, so that they wouldn't have to do that. The crown would pay that to them and it would satisfy that order and they wouldn't then have to find the bank account belonging to the offender, wherever it's going, and seize the money that way.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Randall Garrison
Thank you very much, Mr. Scarpaleggia.
We'll turn to the official opposition for the second round of five minutes. I understand it will be split between Mr. Rousseau and Mr. Rafferty.
Mr. Rousseau.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Ms. Kane and Ms. Lieff, would you say that the bill, as it stands now, could place an extra burden on the federal justice system or that the bill will be fairly easy to implement? You did say that the correctional system could administer the effects of the bill.
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I'm sorry if I appear to be very unhelpful in answering all these questions, but I really cannot speak for the burdens that this would place on the Correctional Service of Canada.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Are you aware of any legal mechanism designed to help women and children with support claims that involve inmates? Is there a system similar to what the current bill sets out?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Family, Children and Youth Section, Department of Justice
I'm not aware of anything that relates specifically to inmates, but as I mentioned, there are maintenance enforcement programs dealing with the collection of outstanding support orders that exist in each province and territory. I don't know how it relates specifically with respect to offenders.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
You do a lot of work with victims. Will this bill help them put their lives back on track, put their minds at ease?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
That's a very good question. I think victims would welcome this bill because of the intention behind it, even if it didn't result in their receiving any money at the end of the day.
Victims of crime generally want to see accountability from offenders, and this certainly advances goals of accountability. Victims of crime are very frustrated when they're awarded restitution and it's not paid. They're quite accepting of the fact that many people haven't got the ability to pay, but they're less accepting—as are other people—when they know a person has the ability to pay and doesn't pay.
So if an offender were in the situation of receiving money and the victim had still not had their restitution satisfied, they would be quite dissatisfied. So victims would likely welcome anything that would be a step in that direction.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you both for being here today.
I have a question that is related to comments by previous witnesses. You were here earlier for the witness before you. He said Bill C-350 causes more trouble than it solves. Would that be your learned opinion of this particular bill?
Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I couldn't comment. I don't feel familiar enough with the whole Correctional Service of Canada modus operandi or the impact of this bill. Just to reiterate my previous comments, it certainly does appear to be a step in the direction that victims of crime have been noting for many years.
NDP