Public Safety Committee on May 31st, 2012

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I want to thank you for your comments, and thank you for the comments you've made in respect to Public Safety. I've been very lucky to have a great group of individuals working there. Bill Baker, who was the deputy minister, has retired, and Graham Flack is the acting deputy at this time. I'm very pleased with the performance of all of these individuals.

I also want to say that I'm very pleased with the work of the Commissioner of the RCMP in respect of reforming the RCMP. For the last number of months, since he has been appointed, he has taken a very aggressive approach, addressing some of the issues that I think have been festering in the RCMP for a long time. This commissioner has not taken a back seat in terms of tackling these matters. It's not always easy, coming out of an organization the way he has and then having to take very strong steps to correct them. But the advantage the commissioner has is his experience inside the organization; he knows where some of the problems are. This is especially true for the issue of sexual harassment inside the RCMP. He's made it clear right from the beginning that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

But he has also pointed out to me that it's very difficult to take concrete steps without the legislative—the statutory and the regulatory—authorities to discipline. You cannot have a situation in which you want to discipline and the individual is then placed on leave with pay and this goes on for years. There have to be immediate consequences and an appropriate route whereby the process is fair to both the individual who is being disciplined and the overall organization, which obviously represents the public interest.

I was quite amazed to see how little authority line commanders have in disciplining officers. We wouldn't accept that in any other organization—not just in an organization like the military, but in any organization in which one needs to ensure that people are doing their job in an appropriate fashion.

The legislation we want to bring forward addresses the disciplinary issue. It also addresses the issue of the complaints from the public, that this be dealt with by an independent tribunal looking at these issues.

Perhaps the commissioner can add some comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Commissioner.

[Commissioner Bob Paulson, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I think that's right, Minister.

Thank you, Chair.

I've come out and made some very strong public statements, and I think that's absolutely true in respect of those individuals who need to be disciplined, with a view to protecting the organization. But that shouldn't give the impression that we're not focused either on the corrective sort of approach to discipline and conduct. We want to really focus on the lion's share of our members who get into difficulty—it's a very stressful job—where we can correct that behaviour early, at the lowest level. When things go bad, as they do, we need to be able to act more directly.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Chairman, how much more time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have a minute and a half, Ms. Young.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Minister, can you speak a little bit about the child sexual exploitation and human trafficking contribution program, which is part of this budget?

[Graham Flack, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety]

Just briefly, this is part of an integrated program. As you can imagine, it's one of these complex issues, Mr. Chairman, that touches a wide range of issues. We see it on the human smuggling side internationally. We see it on the domestic side, and it integrates in ways that are complex to deal with.

The department works with the RCMP and stakeholders internationally to try to address this issue in an integrated way, with the contribution you see in the main estimates that's been in place to be able to look at those challenges. That's an overview of the program.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

My understanding is that Canada has now become a bit of a leader in this whole area internationally. Can you speak a little bit about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Young.

[Graham Flack]

I think it's fair to say that with the excellent work of the RCMP and others, we have taken innovative steps to try to deal with this. But I think the commissioner would probably agree that this is an area in which it's been very difficult to get at these problems. Notwithstanding the leadership we've shown, the challenge is a very significant challenge we face.

While we've taken positive steps to make progress in this area, it's one of those very, very challenging problems that is very difficult to get at, in part because of the international nature of the problem, so it requires significant collaboration with partners internationally.

While we think we've made some progress on this, I wouldn't want to leave the member with the sense that we don't have a very, very significant challenge in front of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Flack.

We'll now move to the opposition side, to Mr. Hsu, please.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start with a question to the minister. It's a question I've asked before in the House and in print. It's about a decision that affects the lives of many of the minister's staff, including the correctional officers here with us today and their families.

The minister has said in the House that the true net saving to taxpayers from closing the three institutions—Leclerc, Kingston Pen, and the Regional Treatment Centre—is $120 million per year. He said that's the true net saving. That's what we heard from the commissioner today. But if you look at the Public Accounts of Canada from 2010-11, it says the combined budget for all three institutions is $112 million per year.

The taxpayer still has to pay for the 1,000 inmates who are housed in those three institutions. They still have to be put somewhere else. The new builds are not finished yet. You still have to staff the new buildings, even though they're on existing sites. You still have to build a new regional treatment centre, which holds 140 to 145 patients with mental illness.

My question to the minister is this. What is your plan? Can you show there's really $120 million in true net savings, as the minister himself has called it in the House of Commons? How are you going to do that if the taxpayer still has to pay for putting the inmates somewhere else? How are you going to pay for the new regional treatment centre? Are you going to negotiate with workers to cut jobs in Ontario and Quebec or ask for other concessions? How are you going to do it? Are you going to tell parliamentarians, whom you're accountable to, how you're going to do it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Hsu, I would also suggest that that question has been posed and answered by both the minister and the commissioner, but go ahead, Minister.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes. I'll defer to the commissioner, who will give the details of how he's come up with that number. That's the number I rely on in my public statements.

[Don Head]

Thank you, Minister.

And thank you, Mr. Chair.

There's absolutely no question, at the end of the day our budget will be a net reduction as it relates to those three facilities of $119 million. As well, what's not seen in the budget, of course, is the budget that will be coming our way when those new units come online. We will be absorbing those inmates in new units in institutions across the country and where we do have some cell capacity in existing facilities. My budget will be net $120 million less at the end of the implementation of this reduction.

In terms of the plan going forward, it goes back to an earlier question. We're taking a three-pronged approach to the closures. The first thing we're doing is focusing on the staff. I have a staff represented by six unions, and we're dealing with the affected unions in terms of the workforce adjustment policy and looking at what options we can pursue in relation to their members in each of the unions. Our goal, ideally, is to keep the talent we have, and we'll be guided by the opportunities that are presented today and going forward, and also through the workforce adjustment policy.

The second phase of our plan, then, is looking at the placement of the offenders. As the minister has pointed out, we're not going to be scrimping in terms of policy or legislation around classifications. Maximum security offenders will be held in maximum security space, medium security offenders in medium security space. We're just in the final throes of working out the details and options for the placement of offenders, including the treatment centre. It's not in our best interest, nor is it consistent with the direction the minister has given me in terms of addressing the mental health needs of the inmates that are in the system, so we have some options we're pursuing there.

The third phase of our plan is in relation to what we do with the existing buildings. There are several options we're looking at there. I think, Mr. Chair, the member is aware that a few discussions are going on over that.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

If I could, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the minister, will the minister make public the plan and the calculations, so that I can verify for the taxpayers I represent that the net saving is actually $120 million? If the commissioner is saying that he would like to keep all the valuable employees we have, the taxpayer is still paying for those salaries. I don't see how we can get true net savings.

My job is to make sure the taxpayer understands what the minister is saying, and I can't do that without information. Will the minister make it public? Will the minister let me do my job?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You can do your job with or without my consent.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Oh, really.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I will, in fact, cooperate with you. I think the commissioner will provide you with whatever information is publicly available at this time, given the state of the planning process. But as the minister responsible, I am ultimately accountable for the plans he's making. I rounded it off to $120 million; he says $119 million. I'll go to the $119 million that he's been saying, but we're in that ballpark. That's what I've been assured, and that's what ultimately I'll have to defend in Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

One minute, please.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

I look forward to seeing that calculation. It's a fair defence, and not just hiding behind ignorance.

I would like to ask the minister about CSIS. According to section 30 of the CSIS Act, the role of the inspector general is to monitor the compliance of CSIS with operational policies and directives. The IG is entitled to have access to any information under CSIS control that relates to the performance of these duties. The Security Intelligence Review Committee, on the other hand, can only monitor and conduct investigations after the fact, so the IG monitors and SIRC reviews. Why is the minister now cutting the ability of his office to actively monitor CSIS by getting rid of the inspector general?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Hsu. Unfortunately, we're out of time on that. Your seven minutes are up. We'll come back. There may be a way that some of those questions can be answered in a subsequent round.

We're going to move to Ms. Doré Lefebvre. Thank you for waiting. You have five minutes, please.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I wish to thank you, Minister, and all of you gentlemen as well, for being here.

I also noted the presence of several corrections officers at the back of the room. I am delighted by their presence here. They too will probably suffer the repercussions of the prison closures.

I have questions regarding the prison closures, but before getting into that, I would like to come back to some of the questions regarding discipline within the RCMP that were put by my colleague opposite.

Mr. Minister, do you have concrete proposals? And, more particularly, do you have a schedule setting out when these proposals will be tabled?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have very specific proposals and I have a very short deadline in terms of bringing forward legislation.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

When might we expect to see something?