Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[Rob Sampson]

It all boils down to money eventually, but even within the institution, it may not have the obvious appearance of dollars.

For instance, I went into one institution and a fellow half my size—probably 90 pounds—was able to walk between a crowd of guys twice my size. They parted ways the way Moses parted the waters. He was the drug guy; he controlled influence in the institution. He had people outside who, when they got out, would provide favours—i.e. cash, retribution, or whatever.

Drugs are the currency. The service provided for the currency can be a number of things, such as respect or whatever. It's amazing how valuable those materials are inside the wall, probably more than outside, because of their limited supply.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

I have a question for Mr. Sampson. I want to understand a little better what you were saying in your opening remarks. Let me try to summarize it, and you can tell me whether I have it right or wrong.

The first thing you said, or at least implied, is that there isn't as much correcting happening inside our institutions as we think. Is that a fair thing to say?

[Rob Sampson]

What I'm saying is that I'm not sure we measure it as well as we should; therefore, maybe we are not quite educated in determining how successful we are in doing it.

The job is to correct people; 100% of the people who leave should be corrected. That is nirvana; we should struggle and strive to get there. We shouldn't stop until we get as close as we can to that. But you had better know how to measure before you start setting your objectives.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

You believe that we need longer sentences because in your opinion—or maybe you have some data—the rehabilitation programs that we have need more time to work because people have complicated problems.

[Rob Sampson]

We have people with hugely more complicated problems than we had 30 years ago, and our average sentence time is going down. We have less time to help these people than we had in the past. How is it humanly possible to get somebody who I just described—with a grade eight education, unemployable, addicted to drugs, with severe family problems—resolved after three years? It's just not possible.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

How do you make the argument, then—or maybe there is data—to show that it is not the quality of the rehabilitation programs but the length of the rehabilitation programs that is the resource we need to increase?

[Rob Sampson]

It could well be both, but what you should be looking for is the success of the rehabilitation programs. If you can rehabilitate the guy in three years, go for it. Get him out in society as soon as we can to prove that in fact you have been able to do that.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

My question is that you seem to be implying that the sentences need to be longer for the rehabilitation programs to work, but how do you know it's the length and not the quality?

[Rob Sampson]

It could potentially be both. I'm saying it's success.

Right now we are not getting.... It is just not humanly possible to do what you have to do to some of these people in the average sentence time, especially when that sentence time is compressed because of things such as statutory release and parole provisions that sometimes don't have a lot to do with whether the person is ready to get out but with how much time is left on the warrant clock.

[Ted Hsu, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Do we have data from other jurisdictions where sentences have been lengthened, to show in a systematic way that by some measure the rehabilitation programs work better?

[Rob Sampson]

Not many years ago, the Brits started a program for measuring the success of their jails and prisons by the rehabilitation rate—the reoffending rate—of those who had gone through it. That has proven hugely successful in challenging the institutions to make sure the right programs are delivered to the right people.

To quickly answer your question, targeting programs is exactly what you have to do with scarce resources, so that the right programs are given to the right people. Not all people can benefit from one particular program; they need to be challenged and focused. The Brits started a program doing that, and their reoffending rates are down.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sampson.

Thank you, Mr. Hsu.

Ms. Morin, you have five minutes.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I want to thank you for being here today.

My first question is mainly about drugs, but also about tobacco. Tobacco has been banned in prisons for several years now, and has meant that cigarettes have become currency. This has increased contraband tobacco and other drugs, mainly anything that can be brought into a prison.

My question may seem far-fetched. From the perspective of reducing misdemeanours, if we consider that heroin, crack and PCP are much more harmful drugs in the short and long term than tobacco, could reintroducing tobacco outside—and not inside the prison, to protect the health of non-smoking inmates—be a solution to reducing trafficking in other drugs?

[Eleanor Clitheroe]

I apologize for rephrasing it, but is your question, if tobacco were a permitted substance in the prisons, would that lessen the currency of other drugs within the prisons or the damage that other drugs would do in the prisons? Is that the nature of your question?

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That's not it. I was told that, since tobacco was banned in prisons, it has been used as currency. But, if tobacco was permitted in the prisons, there would be fewer possibilities for currency against other drugs that may be more harmful.

[Eleanor Clitheroe]

Yes, I think that's probably true. Anything that becomes a currency and a scarce commodity will become tradeable in a limited supply-demand situation. So whether or not tobacco is harmful and is a drug and should be limited in the prison or not, I don't comment on that, but I think if it became easily available, it would cease to be a currency against other drugs.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

A little earlier, other witnesses made comments that I found particularly troubling. You will probably be able to respond. They were talking about strip searches and said that there are often false positive results for visitors entering the prisons. We were told that this may discourage visitors from visiting a family member who is in prison.

We know that contact with family and visitors may foster the individual's rehabilitation. Are there potential solutions to the problem presented by false positives that discourage family and visitors, and jeopardize the social rehabilitation of some incarcerated individuals? They would be more likely to reoffend.

[Eleanor Clitheroe]

Well, certainly false positives do occur. I think one of the previous witnesses mentioned that. You touch a petrol station, whatever can come onto your hand, so certainly that is the case. My own experience is that I'm treated well when I come into a prison, so the suspicion is low that I'm carrying drugs or some contraband. So if there was any issue, I'd be treated with courtesy and I would be treated with the benefit of the doubt, and maybe my purse would be examined, or something like that, but with a great deal of dignity.

I think the issue arises, and perhaps that can become prison to prison, because people are simply people, and guards are simply guards, and visitors also are simply visitors and can be riled or otherwise. The dignity with which these things are handled, I think, is the key. For me that is the key. Certainly testing has to occur in some way. There are going to be errors, but I think it's the dignity with which these things are handled and the training that are key.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Very quickly on the last question, then, we're back to Mr. Leef.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

I need a clarification.

This question will be for you, Mr. Sampson, given your experience in national and international correctional centres. From my experience, there have always been and always will be haves and have-nots within the correctional environment. In your experience, has tobacco, even when it was legal, been a form of currency?

[Rob Sampson]

Yes. It was a form of currency of some sort. Potato chips are a form of currency in prisons.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

From your experience, would reintroducing tobacco into the correctional centres, whether it's in the outside yards or wherever, do anything to minimize the access to or trade in that level of currency for harder drugs?

[Rob Sampson]

I'm not sure. I'd be interested to hear Don Head's point of view on whether or not he has seen an impact from the ban or a change in the presence of drugs in institutions after the tobacco ban. I would suggest that it has probably not changed all that much. As I said, a chocolate bar or a bag of potato chips is currency within the prison system. So are knives, by the way.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Yes. Thank you.

I'll quickly go back to something that Ms. Hoeppner asked about in terms of the rights-based approach to corrections. When we look at a lot of young offender facilities, we see that they operate on a levels system. We move away from that as we get into the adult institutions. That levels system is really based on privileges, on what you earn as you progress, either through programming or through behavioural modification.

From your perspective, why have we moved away from that in the adult institutions? Can that be reintegrated?

[Rob Sampson]

I'm not sure, and yes.