Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Ullyett  Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon
Rob Creasser  Media Liaison, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
Patrick Mehain  President, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
Sergeant Gaétan Delisle  President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Sergeant André Girard  Treasurer, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Tom Stamatakis  President, Canadian Police Association
Alok Mukherjee  President, Canadian Association of Police Boards
James Duggan  Legal Advisor, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is meeting 55 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, on Monday, October 29, 2012. This afternoon we'll continue our consideration of Bill C-42, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act.

On our first witness panel we have, from the Government of Yukon, by video conference from Whitehorse, Mr. Thomas Ullyett. He is the assistant deputy minister of legal services.

Welcome. I trust you can hear us loud and clear?

3:30 p.m.

Thomas Ullyett Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Yes, Mr. Chair, we can hear you very well.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We're also pleased to have, here in our committee room today, from the Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada, Mr. Patrick Mehain, president, and Mr. Rob Creasser, media liaison for the British Columbia branch of the association.

I would welcome an opening statement from both groups.

Perhaps we'll go all the way to Whitehorse for the first one and invite Mr. Ullyett to make his opening comments.

3:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Thomas Ullyett

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

We're proud to appear before the committee. We're particularly proud because our member of Parliament, Ryan Leef, is a member of your committee.

The comments I make this afternoon are on behalf of Mike Nixon, Minister of Justice and Attorney General for the Yukon. Minister Nixon has asked me to make the remarks that follow.

I should say two things at the outset.

First, our comments today are of a more general nature. They are not technical comments on the amending bill, as such, on Bill C-42. We don't have any particular difficulty with the amending provisions as provided in Bill C-42.

Second, our comments are not particularly lengthy, but I'll provide, if I could, Mr. Chair, a brief opening statement.

The Government of Yukon is in support wholeheartedly of the changes that are found in Bill C-42. We are in support largely because the concerns that we've seen across the country in relation to the RCMP are concerns that are found in the Yukon as well.

We did our own policing review and issued a public report two years ago, in December 2010, called “Sharing Common Ground”. Many of the findings in that report, and the recommendations, dovetail with the changes in Bill C-42, so we are very much in support of the effort that Parliament is making in this regard.

Mr. Chair, I should just stop there and ask how long you're anticipating I would have for opening comments.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Generally we give a 10-minute range. Right now you're at two and a half minutes.

If you want to shut down before ten minutes, that's fine. Otherwise, when we get to ten minutes, I may try to get you to wind things down.

The committee would love to question you, as well, following your presentation.

3:30 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Thomas Ullyett

Well, then, Mr. Chair, I will continue.

Like many places in the country, Yukon is now working under a new police services agreement. As you know, there is a new 20-year agreement in place. These changes come at a very opportune time. In fact, during the negotiation for the new agreements we now have, the need for reforms about many of the things contained in Bill C-42, including public complains and internal disciplinary systems of the RCMP, were raised by the Yukon government and other contract partners. Certainly in terms of the discussions we had with our colleagues at Public Safety Canada, we anticipated that the RCMP's legislative regime would be changed. That was our understanding, so we are happy to see that come. We're also aware of the Reform Implementation Council's work and their recommendations made in that regard.

We certainly support the concept that it's difficult for an organization, much less a police organization, to change and move forward into the 21st century with archaic legislation. That's another reason we are supportive of the changes. As I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Chair, Yukon had conducted extensive public consultations in 2010 on policing as part of the policing review. That policing review was instituted as a result of an in-custody death in police cells of a gentleman named Raymond Silverfox in 2008. That led to the RCMP, the Yukon government, and the Council of Yukon First Nations to collaborate on an extensive policing review, resulting in the report called “Sharing Common Ground” two years ago.

During the course of that review, we heard from members of the public about the internal discipline system and what they felt was a baffling and very opaque system, a system they generally found to be remote and inaccessible. This is what we heard from Yukoners with respect to the complaint process. It was also a system that did not seem to be tuned in to the cultural sensitivity and realities of policing in a northern remote area of Canada.

Many of the 33 recommendations, Mr. Chair, that are found in the “Sharing Common Ground” report relate to the very changes being made in Bill C-42, such as the internal disciplinary system and the public complaints system. As I mentioned, we are supportive of the changes because the Yukon public asked us to make changes, and we know the changes fall within federal jurisdiction. You would certainly hope that the new civilian review and complains commission will shore up what is seen as a gap in terms of complaints and by complainants with the system.

Here in Yukon, we ventured into arrangements with Alberta to establish a regime for the investigation of serious incidents involving RCMP members, utilizing Alberta's serious incident response team—ASIRT, as it is called. Certainly Bill C-42 is in sync with that, providing independent investigations for serious incidents and changing the policy into legislation.

Finally, Mr. Chair, I would say that the implementation of these legislative changes, we hope, will strengthen the partnership that we have as a contract partner with the RCMP and that the actual practice on the ground will be mirrored by the very good intentions that are set out in Bill C-42.

Those are my opening remarks. Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Ullyett.

We'll now move to our next guests, Mr. Mehain and Mr. Creasser, please.

3:40 p.m.

Rob Creasser Media Liaison, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and this committee for recognizing the need to hear the views of the rank-and-file members with regard to Bill C-42.

My name is Rob Creasser, and I am the national spokesperson for the Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada and a retired 28-year member of the RCMP. With me is Corporal Patrick Mehain, a current serving member in Coquitlam, B.C., with 15 years of service.

One major problem that exists in the RCMP is the tremendous power imbalances within the organization. Bill C-42, rather than mitigating these issues, will only make them exponentially worse.

Staff Sergeant Abe Townsend, when asked about whether the staff relations representatives were consulted on Bill C-42 during the drafting stage, stated they had not been, yet in the commissioner's own testimony before the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence in Ottawa on June 21, 2012, he stated that he views the SRR program as vital in the RCMP.

This dichotomy is not a surprise to us, because this is the way the consultative process works in the RCMP. Management only consults when they want their directives transmitted to the rank and file, yet the staff relations representatives still hold out hope of meaningful consultation. In the meantime, members of the force continue to face bullying, harassment, and undue delays in resolving their grievances.

While there are many provisions of concern in the bill, we will focus on four major headings under the following: charter violations, independence of the RCMP from political interference, extreme powers given to the commissioner, and women's issues and harassment. We will also provide three simple steps to remedy the major issues of harassment, intimidation, and bullying in the RCMP while making it more accountable.

Under charter violations, with reference to ordered statements and proposed subsections 40(1) and 40(2), the requirement that compels a member to make a statement even if it is self-incriminating is contrary to charter rights and must be removed.

Ex parte warrants for the discipline process under proposed subsection 40.2(1), again, are a violation of the charter rights of members against unreasonable search and seizure. It is surprising, because by Commissioner Paulson's own testimony police officers had a vital role to play in drafting this bill and yet these very obvious charter violations, which RCMP members would not be allowed to commit during criminal investigations, are somehow okay when it comes to dealing with citizens who are members of the force.

On independence from political interference, the appointment of the commissioner and deputy commissioners at pleasure in proposed subsection 5(3) opens the office of the commissioner up to the problem of political interference in police matters. The commissioner and deputy commissioners of the RCMP should serve at the pleasure and be answerable to an independent bipartisan parliamentary committee in order to prevent the RCMP from being used to promote political motives.

Chief Superintendent Craig MacMillan highlighted various problems in the RCMP in his doctoral thesis, “A Modern Star Chamber: An Analysis of Ordered Statements in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, yet Chief Superintendent MacMillan has completely gone against his own research into the culture of the RCMP in helping draft Bill C-42.

This highlights yet another of the main issues that Bill C-42 does not actually remedy, this one being that the current promotion system has been used very effectively to silence those members who point out issues, first by promising promotions and then, when that does not work, by threatening their careers by withholding job and promotional opportunities.

On national security, under proposed subsections 31(1.3) and 31(1.4), the Minister of Public Safety has the right to direct the RCMP to take an action under the guise of national security, but the minister does not have to provide any evidence of the threat. The RCMP has been ordered to violate existing Canadian law in terms of the use of torture-related info. As police officers, we are sworn not only to protect life and property but also to bring those who violate our laws to justice.

Terrorism is a concern, but we can draw from the experience of our compatriots across the pond in the United Kingdom and set up a national security committee, which would include members from all political parties in Parliament and would also have as members the heads of the RCMP, CSIS, CBSA, and CSE, as well as special judges who would hear the evidence the government has and make the final decision. That way we involve those entrusted with national security and also those who are sworn to protect Canadian and international law decisions.

On power given to the commissioner, here we refer to proposed paragraphs 20.2(1)(c), 20.2(1)(e), 20.2(1)(g), 20.2(1)(i), and 20.2(1)(k) and proposed subsections 20.2(3) and 20.2(4). The Commissioner of the RCMP has always had the ability to get rid of members who have contravened their sworn duty to uphold the law. We agree that this process needs to be streamlined, but Bill C-42 gives the office of the commissioner much too much power. The RCMP has had problems with commissioners who have abused this power in the past.

We also have concerns with the requirement for a member to attend a doctor of management's choosing.

On firing people for economic efficiency, the force spends tens of thousands of dollars to recruit, train, and equip members, and then it fires these members, thus essentially flushing the money spent and the investigative experience gained by these members down the drain. When times improve, we have to spend taxpayers' money to start the process all over again. This provision also leaves the employment of members open to the problem of becoming another tool for harassment and bullying by managers.

Another issue is the power of the RCMP commissioner, under proposed subsection 20.2(4), to delegate authority to subordinates for dismissals. The RCMP is predominantly made up of small work sites—detachments—so quite low ranks could be making decisions that reflect the entire force, yet training is sorely lacking.

Finally, on women's issues and harassment, there can be no grievance in respect of the right to equal pay for equal work under proposed subsection 31(1.2). Gender discrimination and harassment are two of the most troublesome areas in the RCMP. This provision in the bill actually works to legitimize the problem of treating female and minority members in the RCMP as being unequal members in the force.

Under Bill C-42, there is no provision for the protection of whistleblowers within the force. Bill C-42 expressly prohibits a member from speaking publicly about issues within the force and lays out sanctions that the member will face for doing so.

If Bill C-42 is passed in its current form with the charter violations and avenues for continued abuse of power by managers, rather than correcting the issues that have plagued the RCMP, our Parliament would be promoting the bad behaviour and cronyism by legitimizing this type of behaviour.

In Chief Superintendent MacMillan's doctoral thesis, he stated:

One finding from the research is that the form of employee representation in the R.C.M.P., which was created, paid for and run by management, contributes to the actual or perceived vulnerability of members. Unlike other police employees who enjoy some protection by membership in an employee association, this feature is lacking in the R.C.M.P. Members simply do not have the numerical, moral or financial support to challenge improper actions by management. Denying the right to choose the form of employee representation by members undermines the R.C.M.P.'s newly proclaimed empowerment and management philosophies.

If Parliament is truly interested in beginning the process to address the problems that currently plague the RCMP, there are three simple and yet powerful steps that can be taken.

The first step is to bring in a process of collective bargaining to deal with employer/management-labour relations in the RCMP.

The second step is to bring in a process of independent binding arbitration to resolve grievances that cannot be resolved between management and labour. Make sure the arbitrator is independent of the influence of government, Treasury Board, RCMP management, and RCMP labour representatives. In the Vancouver Police Department, for example, grievances take, on average, a maximum of 28 days to be settled. The RCMP process takes much longer, and some have gone on for seven years or more.

Finally, the third step is to enact legislation that repeals section 96 of the RCMP Act and thereby allow the members to have the ability to have a free and truly democratic vote to elect independent, member-funded labour representatives.

The rank-and-file members of the RCMP are proud to serve the citizens of this country in all capacities, from the municipal level to international areas. All we ask is to be treated with the same dignity and be afforded the same rights as every other Canadian citizen.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Creasser.

We'll move to Mr. Leef for the first round of questioning. You have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for attending.

Good day to Mr. Ullyett and Mr. Ford in Whitehorse.

Mr. Ullyett, I have in front of me the executive summary for the “Sharing Common Ground” report you referred to in your opening statements. I'll read a quick sentence here, to put some things into context.

Part of the first page in the executive summary says:We have heard many accounts of policing excellence, including stories of RCMP members going above and beyond their normal duties. The purpose of the Review is to improve the quality of policing services for all citizens in the territory.

A bit further on, they recommend the establishment of Yukon Police Council, with a mandate to ensure that community needs and values are reflected in territorial policing policies and practices....

Then they recommend a makeup of that kind of council. Is there any appetite or effort right now in Yukon to have a separate police council, or is the government currently satisfied with using the current processes?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Thomas Ullyett

Thank you for that question, Mr. Leef.

Following the recommendation in the “Sharing Common Ground” report that a police council be established, the government did move forward to establish an independent police council. That council has met on a number of occasions. It has done some public consultations, all with a view to providing recommendations to the Minister of Justice. Those recommendations have either just been provided or are imminent to Minister Mike Nixon.

I can say, Mr. Leef, that I did attend one of the public sessions the police council convened in early September at the Kwanlin Dün First Nation Cultural Centre in Whitehorse, and I was quite amazed by the number of groups and individuals who had come forward to speak to the council.

Does that answer your question?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Yes, it does, absolutely.

In part of those meetings, now or in the future, will the public there be made aware of any of the recommendations and changes in Bill C-42, outside of the efforts that I make in the territory?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Thomas Ullyett

Most certainly they will, through a number of mechanisms, most generally through the Yukon Department of Justice website, where we have a specific number of pages. We also have a specific site for the Yukon Police Council, and there is also general advertising, both traditional and through social media.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

I brought up several times in committee that a lot of these things tend to shift their focus on the needs of the community members, or at least the focus of conversation doesn't always shift to the front-line members of the RCMP.

In these consultations, have you heard from front-line members of the RCMP? Particularly during the police review, did you hear from the front-line people who deliver policing services in the communities in the Yukon? If so, what were their comments?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Government of Yukon

Thomas Ullyett

During the policing review, one of the three co-chairs was the commanding officer for M Division, Peter Clark. Through that review, an incredible number of comments were received from the general public, but it did not by any means preclude the front-line members, as you say, of the RCMP. They have had opportunity, and have exercised that opportunity, to provide comment.

I expect that will continue in the future.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Great. Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Creasser—did I enunciate your name correctly, sir?

3:55 p.m.

Media Liaison, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada

Rob Creasser

Yes, sir.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you.

You mentioned in your statement the charter violations section. Perhaps we can quickly go back to that aspect. Are you saying there's a section in the act that is ordering statements on members when there are Criminal Code violations conducted by members that is superseding the fundamental rights of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

3:55 p.m.

Media Liaison, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada

Rob Creasser

I believe it's under section 7.

Chief Superintendent MacMillan noted in his thesis, when referring to ordered statements, that even in code of conduct matters that don't involve the Criminal Code per se, these statements can be used in subsequent civil and other processes. That's obviously a concern to us.

We understand the need to be accountable for one's actions. In Chief Superintendent MacMillan's thesis, he looked at other police departments, and he found that, to be honest, there wasn't the need for these types of statements, and that they were able to effectively investigate their members without the necessity of an ordered statement.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Okay.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have about 30 seconds.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you.

You had touched on that, and I just wanted to clarify it. I was thinking that the charter would still apply in the Criminal Code aspect of things, and I think you clarified a bit in terms of whether or not those sections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms would actually apply.

You really did focus a lot on the negative aspects of what you see. Is there anything positive that you see coming out of this legislation?

3:55 p.m.

Media Liaison, British Columbia, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada

Rob Creasser

Absolutely.

I think you have to look at the RCMP front line as also being stakeholders in this process. I think it's alarming that you have 24,000 people who are going to be clearly affected by this legislation, but there was no consultation prior to getting to this point. You have about 120 pages of legislation. It would have been nice to have been in on the ground floor.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you. We'll leave it at that.

We'll go to Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you to both of the witnesses for appearing today.

I want to start with a quick question to Mr. Ullyett regarding policing in the Yukon.

Are there any RCMP who police in the Yukon who are not under your contract? In other words, are there RCMP officers stationed there who do federal policing responsibilities that are not under your policing contract?