I could make a number of comments in response to Mr. Leef. I'll try to do it quickly, Mr. Scott, so that I don't take up much of your time.
First of all, my purpose, from the Canadian Bar Association, is to analyze this legislation. We have tools. We have the Criminal Code. We have, for example, wiretap legislation. We have intelligence-sharing among police forces and between CSIS and other international agencies. In no way do we look at this bill as being the only tool or the total solution to what is unquestionably a great problem. To suggest that we looked at this bill as the only tool is simply not accurate.
Yes, investigative hearings were used once, but it should also be noted—and I believe it was Mr. Gilmour from the Department of Justice who gave evidence before you on November 19 following the minister—that the information the crown was trying to get in that case was never obtained from the person who was the subject of that proceeding. The crown got it from another source. In fact, three members of the Supreme Court said that the way the crown was using the provision was an abuse.
With respect to oversight, there has to be oversight, and we've suggested that. Perhaps something like the Security Intelligence Review Committee would be able to have that oversight, rather than simply have the Attorney General or a provincial attorney general report to their respective legislatures.
The standards set out in the proposed section, under proposed subparagraph 83.28(4)(b)(ii), are very low. For example, information concerning the offence, not substantive information, but information “that may reveal”, which can be quite speculative, the whereabouts of a person suspected by a peace officer, those are very low standards, and a very low standard can be used in a way that fundamentally differs from our traditions.
The Canadian Bar Association is very supportive of effective legislation. We do not believe this legislation is effective or that it adds anything new. That's what our position is.
I hope that assisted with some of Mr. Leef's comments.