Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.
On the front page of the testimony you submitted, you noted that the CBA does not believe Bill S-7 would actually provide any new tools to combat terrorism offences. Certainly, that's not what we've heard from any single law enforcement agency or intelligence-gathering group that have been here. It's always interesting to me, as a new member of Parliament, to hear one whole group of witnesses involved in that business articulate how valuable something would be for them and another group not directly involved in the enforcement application or information-gathering application of the legislation completely suggest that it wouldn't be good for them.
I'll give you an opportunity to correct me if I've misread you here, but I see the act as being a tool in an integrated network of enforcement application and information-gathering and not as a solution in and of itself. I was reading into this that the comments that were made were looking at this act as the sole solution to combatting terrorism. Certainly, I can see how there might be a negative vein if you thought this were the only thing at all being used to deal with what all our other witnesses have said is one of the single biggest threats to Canadian safety and security today.
I think it was Mr. Calarco who noted there's no real evidence that investigative hearings have worked, but he then correctly pointed out that it has only been utilized once or twice. It would only stand to reason that we wouldn't have evidence that it's worked or not worked since it has only been utilized once or twice.
I'm not 100% sure I agree with the idea that anybody wouldn't believe that a person would fail to participate in these hearings and would simply lie, and in the same vein with the recognizance aspect, does anyone believe that anyone would be deterred by a recognizance. If we were to take that approach with this, we could ask exactly the same question of any aspect of the Criminal Code and any aspect of a judicial hearing. Why do we enter into recognizance with anybody? Why do we even have trials where we compel witnesses and subpoena people to attend. They could be as equally compelled to lie and not tell the truth and look out for their own personal interests, I think, in the judicial system.
I'm certain you must agree that provides a venue and an opportunity for people to address their side of the story, air in a public forum what their beliefs and experiences are, not simply as a venue to showcase or save their bacon. If we take that approach, then that casts a really dark shadow across our entire judicial system, not only in respect to this bill.
By way of Mr. Barrette's remarks that we need a rational and clear-headed approach to this, on the opposite side it would mean he's inferring that it was created by irrational and foggy-headed people. I'm not sure I would concur with that, either.
We heard a fair bit of testimony about the need for it in 2012, being that we are not prepared to wait for it to happen again and then say there's a need and that we should engage this again. We're working on a preventative system of information gathering in law enforcement, which I think is reasonable and responsible.
The one thing I really can agree with in your statement is that the powers that are circumscribed need to be accompanied equally by a rigorous and independent oversight. I would look to the judiciary to be that independent oversight. One thing we tend to focus a little too much on, as Mr. Calarco mentioned, is the single peace officer idea, which slightly undermines the complexity of information gathering and intelligence gathering. It would give Canadians the image that one police officer simply drives along in his car, pulls somebody over, and then engages in this judicial review application and recognizance issuance. There's a lot more complexity, obviously, to these investigations and information sharing that won't befall the authority of one lone police officer in Canada.
I'm really encouraged. Let's go back quickly to that equal and independent oversight that you talk about.
This bill requires prior consent of the Attorney General of Canada or the solicitor general of a province before they can move ahead. There have to be reasonable grounds, obviously; it's standard application in criminal law. The judge would have to be satisfied that reasonable attempts have been made to obtain the information by other means, for both future and past terrorism offences. The bill clarifies. It sets out maximum periods of detention.
In fact, many of the provisions laid out in this bill I see as a little more intense than the Criminal Code provisions for standard defences. I say that being a past member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and being familiar with the working operations of it.
The independent oversight that you're talking about is covered in great detail, in comparison with what we have with the standard Criminal Code. I'd like a comment on that aspect of it, because I think we've tried to meet that goal.
In relation to trying to achieve either goal with this bill, I would say that the investigative and enforcement arm brings evidence forward to a judicial panel and it then falls to counsel to ensure the success of these things. It's certainly not the law enforcement folks who are up there trying to draw out testimony from the witnesses to make sure that they're not lying or trying to save their bacon. If there's failure, this is all part of an integrated team setting, in which counsel has a duty and obligation to make sure they take the investigative and information gathering work that has been done and draw the information out in these investigative hearings for the benefit and safety of Canadians.
I'd ask you to comment on one or all of those things, or maybe Mr. Rafferty would like to.