Public Safety Committee on Jan. 29th, 2013

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I hope by bringing this up.... Of course you are aware of the issues, particularly in the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service. I don't know if there are others in as poor a state across the country as they are, but I would ask you to go back now after this and really make a serious effort in dealing with the issues that are faced in northwestern Ontario by the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service.

[Shawn Tupper]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Before we go to Mr. Payne, I will let the committee know that we will have other meetings a little later on at which the focus will be on aboriginal policing and remote policing.

Go ahead, Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming today.

I was very interested in the conference that went on.

Mr. Potter, you indicated that sometime in the spring or the summer we should hear from the participants, particularly those in B.C. and Ontario, who I believe are going to chair the changes or support opportunities that may be available. I'm assuming that all provinces will still have input into those organizations or those provinces that are leading the changes.

[Mark Potter]

I'll take a stab at that one. I want to make sure I understand your question.

The summit has led to the undertaking of a collective process to develop a forward agenda. That collective process will involve all governments. It will involve the three national policing associations and other stakeholders. There's going to be a process of pretty broad-based engagement between now and the fall to explore with them the development of this forward agenda and areas in which we collectively may choose to act.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Have they specified any particular areas they want to look at during this stage?

[Mark Potter]

Perhaps.

There are a couple of things here. You may be picking up on my earlier remarks about B.C. and Ontario doing their own in-depth review of their police services, which is happening in parallel with this process. They have certain issues and areas of responsibility they want to look at in a very detailed way, so they'll be doing that in parallel.

Part of the goal and part of the reason we're all working together is that we can develop a Canada-wide approach that respects what's happening in each jurisdiction and adds value to those processes. There might be actions that one can take at a Canada-wide level, in terms of sharing information on best practices, for example, or for enhanced research and research coordination that would benefit everyone and support those other initiatives.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

In Alberta we have a combination of municipal as well as RCMP services, particularly in my riding of Medicine Hat. I can think of a couple of communities. The City of Brooks, for example, uses RCMP, and the Town of Taber has its own municipal police force, as well as Medicine Hat.

Deputy Commissioner, in terms of the provinces and the agreement with the federal government on the RCMP services, could you give me some clarification on who's paying what costs, in particular when we get down into the City of Brooks, which has the forces there, as well as the small Town of Redcliff?

[D/Commr Steve Graham]

As you know, we just renewed or actually created a new agreement for policing services. It's based on the premise of a cost-sharing arrangement that brings benefits to both the federal government and the province and/or the municipality.

The numbers generally frame up as follows: for provincial policing there is a 70%-30% cost-share across a wide base of input costs. For municipalities in excess of 15,000 there is a 90%-10% split, and for municipalities of less than 15,000 it's generally 70%-30%, which is very similar to the provincial contract. There are dedicated municipal agreements, and some provinces have what are called extended agreements under the provincial umbrella, so it varies. In the territories it's the same model.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

You and Mr. Potter talked about administrative cost savings. Do you have any details that would help us understand what that actually means? Are there any specific actions? Do those include benefits or those kinds of issues?

[Mark Potter]

I can take a stab at it more generally.

We don't have details—that's the short answer—because, frankly, there hasn't been a lot of cost reduction happening within Canada in policing at the macro level until quite recently, in the last year or so. We're starting to see that happen. I mentioned Toronto earlier; they've begun a process of reducing their budget, or at least containing the growth rate. There would be information there on what sort of administrative changes they've brought about to do that. Clearly the RCMP is in the process of doing that right now, as I mentioned in my remarks.

The U.K. is another good example. They have an agency of the central government that looks at what's happening in terms of policing reform efforts and how they are realizing savings. They begin to break it down in quite a detailed way as to the major trends they're seeing to realize those cost savings. Is it use of technology? Is it use of civilian staff? Is it use of tiered policing, and so on? They can break it out.

We're nowhere near that point yet in the level of measurement and reporting, but more fundamentally, we're not at that point in terms of the degree of change that has happened within our police service and being able to capture that in a systematic way so that we can gain anecdotal information in Canada. In the U.K. they have a much more advanced system of tracking and analyzing the reform efforts and efficiencies they've realized.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

This is the one place where the government has a back-to-back question. Mr. Gill, welcome to committee. It's your turn. Mr. LaVar Payne has already used up one of your minutes. You have four minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

How can that be? I have another question.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also want to thank the witnesses for being here.

My question is for Mr. Potter. In your opening remarks, you mentioned another key FPT deliverable: the catalogue of initiatives from across Canada that improve the efficiency and effectiveness of policing that was also showcased at the summit. I'm wondering if you're able to tell us what some of those initiatives in the catalogue are.

[Mark Potter]

Sure.

The catalogue is a work in progress. This was a commitment made at the Charlottetown meeting. These initiatives at one level sound quite simplistic, but in reality I think they can be quite fundamental to reform efforts. As a police service, it's not an easy task when you're looking at how you might reform, innovate, and make yourself more efficient and effective, so other examples from across the country and around the world that let you learn what works and what doesn't work can be tremendously helpful, at least in giving you ideas into areas you want to look at more deeply and then perhaps customize for your particular situation.

We're still gathering the information from all the provincial and territorial governments and the police services within them. We hope to have a document soon that we would be able to share with our provincial and territorial colleagues first and foremost so they can see the whole package. We were able to pull that together in a rough draft at the summit for them to look at, but this is still a work in progress and will take a little longer to be finalized. This would be an important tool to share.

It builds on initiatives we've seen in other countries. The Department of Justice in the United States has an online tool called "CrimeSolutions.gov". I'd recommend the committee look at it. It's quite a robust site where they look at various initiatives, whether problem-oriented policing, hot spots, increased patrols in particular areas, integrated teams, and so on. They look at those programs and the evidence-based research related to those programs and try to validate how effective those programs are. It's a very user-friendly site that lists what the research is telling you about the various initiatives happening in police services right across the United States and how effective they are based on sound analytics related to those programs. I think moving toward that kind of model in Canada could be very helpful.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Would this be a first-time effort of this kind? Is a previous so-called catalogue not available for best practices for other police forces or agencies that they can share?

[Mark Potter]

My understanding is that this is new to Canada. Perhaps some of the academics you may hear from would have knowledge of a number of initiatives that are under way. They would be able to pull that information together in some fashion.

Having spoken with quite a number of academics in Canada, I know that really is a gap. It's an area where we can do better. We can learn from others, and we can build that capacity here to assist police services in their reforms.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Perfect.

I'm also wondering if you'd be able to tell us what amount of money the federal government contributes to policing at the provincial and municipal levels with regard to contracts. As well, are there any other areas where costs are incurred?

[Mark Potter]

I'm afraid I don't have those numbers at my fingertips. I'd have to look into it, certainly conceptually, to break it down. Of that $12 billion figure we spend on policing in Canada, a portion would be direct funding by the federal government to the RCMP. Within that, as Deputy Commissioner Graham mentioned, a portion goes to contract jurisdictions. It's the 30% or the 10% share. We would have to pull those numbers together to come up with the precise number for you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Potter.

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

We'll now move to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I like a lot of things we're hearing here. It's interesting to me that it seems, in part at least, to be heading in a different direction than the government's traditional approach to crime. It's moving toward an approach we've advocated, which is more along the lines of building safer communities.

Not having the minister appear before us, I think it'll be interesting to see our report. I guess at that time the minister will give us a response to whatever report we choose to create on this topic of the economics of policing, but I'm certainly very glad to hear the emphasis on partnership and consultation.

I want to turn to the specific question of mental health. We have seen, in the prison system, the cost driver that mental health problems can be and the difficulties we've had in dealing with that. In my own experience, about a decade ago, when I sat on a municipal police board, we had discussions about mental health as a significant cost driver for our police force. That included things like uniformed officers having to sit at a hospital with a person in crisis until a doctor arrived. It meant sometimes sitting there as long as six or seven hours, when they could be otherwise used for crime prevention purposes.

I've had some recent discussions with municipal chiefs of police and with the RCMP inspector in West Shore in my riding. This issue continues to be a problem in British Columbia. When people have mental health crises, even if there are community resources, people tend not to have their crises between 9 and 5, when mental health agencies tend to be available. They tend to have them during evenings and weekends, when the police are really the only resource available in the community.

Was this topic brought up at the summit? Is there any way we can try to make sure that in this study we address mental health issues and leaving mental health to police?

[Mark Potter]

Perhaps I'll take a first crack at this.

Yes, absolutely, this is a key concern, because that is a pretty important driver of calls to police for service. How you deal with individuals with mental health challenges as effectively as possible is a very important part of being responsive to your community and enhancing community safety. I don't want to harp too much on best practices, but you certainly have examples, as alluded to earlier, of models in Alberta, for example, where Calgary, Edmonton, and Grand Prairie have joint response teams. A mental health professional goes out with the police officer on particular calls, because often they are better trained and better prepared to deal with those sorts of individuals who need that help. There are initiatives like that.

There are other initiatives that in some ways sound kind of mundane but could be quite important. In Whitehorse, I know that the RCMP has an agreement with the hospital there on how they will deal with the treatment of mental health-challenged individuals who are brought in as a result of incidents. Finding the most efficient way the hospital can engage with those individuals and help them allows the police officers to get back out into the community and continue doing police work. As you mentioned, you sometimes have situations in which the police are required to be in a hospital for a considerable period of time, and that's not the best use of resources.

[Shawn Tupper]

You could write a whole report just on this facet. The debate around the implications of mental health issues across the criminal justice system is hot. We discuss it at every venue I sit at.

Certainly from a crime prevention perspective, the focus of the crime prevention program is on youth, trying to understand the risks that we can identify early on with respect to youth and how and why they are acting out. Getting to them earlier and diverting them away from the criminal justice system is a really critical element of that. Looking at mental health issues in that context is certainly a big issue.

Following the summit, I went straight to Montreal and participated in a criminal justice forum where the topic was mental health. Again, we're trying to look at diversion within the criminal justice system, so it's giving the courts opportunities to look at people who have mental heath issues and trying to deal with sentencing and whatnot that is more innovative, if I can put it that way. Certainly it's giving tools to all aspects of the system so that they can address these kinds of issues rather than just simply judicializing people who perhaps should not be judicialized.

Within the Correctional Service of Canada, we've made some fairly good progress over the last five years in terms of looking at how we're managing offenders who have mental health issues. We now have mental health programming that 80% of offenders can access. We have beds available for one in 20 offenders who need actual day bed in-patient treatment, so there is lots of investing in this huge issue right across the whole spectrum of the criminal justice system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your question.

We'll move to Mr. Aspin, please.

Welcome back, Mr. Aspin.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome to the committee.

In a study on policing economics, the big elephant in the room here is obviously salaries. You have pointed out that costs have gone from $6 billion to $12 billion over the last decade, with a 40% increase in police salaries.

That has caused a lot of stress in my riding, particularly among a lot of the smaller rural communities. They're having a tough time coping with their policing costs. They are looking at all kinds of ways and means of reducing police costs.

We have some figures here. We're talking about a 40% increase in police officers' salaries compared with 11% for the average Canadian.

Mr. Potter, could you explain to me why there is such a discrepancy between police officers and the rest of Canadians?