Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crime.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you.
Francis asked some of the questions I wanted to ask you. That seems to be the lay of the land this morning.
My question is for Mrs. Workman-Stark.
I studied human resources, work organization, to be specific. It is a field that has much to do with time, movements, and the rationalization of services and staff. However in many organizations where these measures have been implemented, they have proven problematic. We noted that their effect was to deprive people of important aspects of their work as human beings, for instance their intuition, spontaneity and creativity. In my opinion those aspects are important when an officer has to assess situations.
How will it be possible to restructure while preserving those aspects that are important to the work of a field officer, in my opinion?
9:30 a.m.
Supt Angela Workman-Stark
Thank you very much for the question. It's not one that we haven't heard before.
9:30 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:30 a.m.
Supt Angela Workman-Stark
It's true. We have. The genesis of the question has really been more so about that expertise.
One of the things we've looked at going forward.... Also, just as a side comment, with this, we've had the benefit of really looking at doing things differently. I'll get to your question, but instead of taking a 20% hit, say, and cutting off a limb, we've had the opportunity to really look at how we can do things differently.
In terms of human resources, it's actually looking at changing our structures and our models to really look at creating communities of practice. Really, it's about communities of practice around the realm of knowledge management, where you have people providing the opportunity, whether it's related to financial crime, national security, serious and organized crime, international policing, or intelligence, but enabling an environment for them to really engage and be creative, right? It's something that's going to be critical for us in moving forward: identifying innovative ways of actually penetrating criminality.
This is something new, and I think it's much better than we've had in the past. We've been too siloed, so that innovation and creativity have been limited to a certain area. This is what is actually going to change to create that type of system. The measurements absolutely are questionable, but this is something that we're going to monitor for the next period of time.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you very much.
My second question is for Mr. Cabana.
There are four police forces in my riding, which is close to the border. There are six entry points. The Border Services Agency is there, as well as the RCMP, the Sûreté du Québec, and occasionally, municipal police forces as well.
I would like to know how the restructuring and the next $190 million round of cuts will affect services, and in particular, everyone's responsibilities. How is all of this going to be spread out, and what domino effect could the cuts to services and resources have? When I speak to officers in the field, I already see that resources are somewhat limited.
How will these cuts affect the morale of the troops, who are so proud of their work?
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
9:30 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
What we hear regarding the troops and the RCMP is that our force is very excited. I am looking for the right term in French. They are committed to these changes we want to bring about.
9:30 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
Correct. They are enthusiastic. Thank you.
They see the possibilities and the flexibility that this is going to give them in their daily work.
As for our partner agencies, certain adjustments may have to be made. That is why we are discussing things with them and keeping them informed about how our process is evolving, so as to ensure that when we make the changes, this will not create a discrepancy no one will take responsibility for.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Deputy Commissioner, you talked about no draft cuts for front-line policing, and that's great. You talked about flexibility and how there are economies in the flexibility.
To follow the health care analysis a little bit, my opinion of the health care system is that we have some wonderful high-tech stuff out there, and everybody wants the high-tech solution when the low-tech solution may work just fine.
Is that comparable to the kind of flexibility you're talking about in policing? You don't have to have the high-tech stuff all the time, and basic policing will sometimes be just as effective and cheaper.
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
That's an interesting question. I am going to try to answer it. It might not be exactly on point, but these are some of the things we're looking at.
Flexibility means flexibility in terms of being able to go after a criminal organization by whatever means the investigators can determine. Historically if the investigator was a drug investigator, he would be attacking the organization from their involvement in the drug environment. That won't be the case anymore. They can go after the organization by whatever means they want.
Flexibility for us also means managers can consider the return on investment, if you want, from embarking on a full-fledged criminal investigation versus maybe approaching the criminal organization from a completely different perspective.
Maybe the solution and the greatest impact will not be through a prosecution. Maybe, if the person is not a Canadian resident, deportation would be better. Maybe a tax evasion investigation by another department would be the solution.
There should be flexibility in the tools that are at the disposal of the investigators. I think there are real benefits to be gained there.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Good.
I want to go back to the international aspect and get your comments on the importance of CSIS expanding their international operations. The questions had to do with which was the lead agency, what that changes, and so on. Maybe, by way of example, you could step us through an operation to disrupt, say, human trafficking out of Thailand, including where that would start and how it would transition from an operation by CSIS to one by the RCMP to whoever as it comes to Canada, and the impact of that on domestic policing.
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
How much time do I have?
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
It's hard to say how an investigation would be initiated, especially in the context of human trafficking. I'd suggest it's very likely that we would be the lead agency from the start. Assuming CSIS was involved.... Actually I support CSIS expanding their international footprint. I think it benefits everybody. It benefits the whole country. Assuming that through their international network they identified some potential terrorist or national security threat, and they embarked on an investigation that led them to secure some information or some indication that there were actually individuals who would be travelling or would facilitate the illegal immigration of individuals to Canada, at that point in time there would be some discussions around the coordination table in terms of what tools and what abilities we would be able to bring to bear to potentially prevent the immigration itself, or potentially disrupt it, or investigate it, and bring it to court.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
It's obviously cheaper for us as a country to interdict it in Bangkok than it is to interdict it on Vancouver Island.
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
Absolutely. History has shown that.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Yes, you bet.
Again, sticking with the international, the RCMP is involved in a lot of international operations side by side with the Canadian Forces, in Afghanistan, for example. There is a cost to that.
How important are those kinds of missions to the RCMP in terms of developing an overall capability in a combat operation like Afghanistan or something like Haiti?
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
They are extremely important for a number of reasons. First of all, it gives us an opportunity to bring some of the culture and some of the principles that Canadian society holds so dear to the international forum, and potentially, hopefully, to try to implement it or share it with foreign jurisdictions.
From a criminal perspective, it allows us, by assisting that jurisdiction, that country, to attain a certain stability and capacity in attacking criminality domestically within their borders, which can actually prevent that criminality from coming to Canada. Again, it is extremely important.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
9:40 a.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.
I'd like to move the discussion back to more traditional policing. We've been talking about fraud and international policing and so on and so forth. I'd like to talk about aboriginal policing and the work that you do in the provinces and territories, the territories being a separate item where the RCMP is the front-line service, and your support for first nations policing in the provinces. We'll exclude Quebec and Ontario because the OPP picks up a lot of that slack right now.
The RCMP has done a lot recently, in the last number of decades, in fact, to save costs. I'll use, just as an example, not moving officers around as much or not in such a short period of time.
Let me talk first about the work that you do in the provinces and your relationship with first nations police services. I know first-hand, and we've heard from witnesses, that first nations policing is in trouble. How does re-engineering fit into helping ensure that aboriginal police forces are effective and that you are able, with your own budget cuts and so on, to provide the support for those first nations police services that is lacking, certainly in northern Ontario where continual chronic underfunding of first nations police forces has forced the OPP to pick up a lot of the slack? And they're not doing it anymore because they don't have the money either.
I wonder if you'd like to make a comment on re-engineering and how that works. This is for either one of you.
9:40 a.m.
D/Commr Mike Cabana
That's a difficult question to answer, especially if you exclude Quebec and Ontario.
Our role in first nations policing or in assisting first nations policing is actually being managed out of our contract side of the house. Within Ontario and Quebec, and actually nationally, to a certain extent, the flexibility or the benefit of re-engineering for first nations policing would be in terms of our prioritization and our ability to have a more robust view of what's going on in our ability to assist first nations policing in attacking whatever criminal organizations are operating within their communities.
Within Ontario and Quebec, and in Quebec specifically, we have a very strong relationship with first nations policing. They are part of some of our combined forces enforcement teams. There is one actually in Quebec specifically focused on looking at the operation of organized crime groups within first nations communities.
That's why it's hard for me to give you a national perspective of what the re-engineering would do.
