Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crime.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Commissioner Mike Cabana  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Angela Workman-Stark  Director, Federal Policing Re-engineering, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Joseph Schafer  Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

9:40 a.m.

NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

I'm also thinking of the actual economics and the finances of having chronically underfunded first nations police services right across Canada and the RCMP in those provinces having to pick up the slack really. Just in terms of answering calls and supporting and doing that sort of thing when your own budgets are being cut, it seems to me that the economics are looking pretty grim across the country.

9:40 a.m.

D/Commr Mike Cabana

I can't disagree with you, but as I said, unfortunately, in terms of how our contract's going to be mitigating whatever reductions they are going to be subjected to, I don't think I'm the one who should be speaking to that.

What I can tell you, though, as the government, as the minister, even, has mentioned on several occasions, the impact to the front line by some of the reductions will be minimal, if any.

You were talking about the back office. The back office does not necessarily refer to the intelligence analysts. It refers more to some of the administrative process that the organization has.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

I would hazard to suggest that the minister is wrong in that assessment—

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

There's a surprise.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

—in terms that the economics are not going to be impacted. Really, the RCMP, in terms of first nations and aboriginal persons, are picking up more and more of the slack because you've got another police service that's not well funded. I don't understand that.

You both talked about opportunity, so where's the opportunity here in terms of first nations and aboriginal policing, with re-engineering?

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Please reply very quickly.

9:45 a.m.

D/Commr Mike Cabana

In terms of our contract work, the opportunities are very minimal. In terms of aboriginal communities that are located in Ontario and Quebec, the relationship is already there. In terms of the collaboration and the enhanced coordination with them, working together to attack organized crime, that's already there and that will continue.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We want to thank you for appearing. We've heard this before many a time. In the decade from 1997 to 2007, policing costs went from $6 billion to $12 billion.

Even though Mr. Scarpaleggia talked about not just the wages or the personnel being cut, that makes up 80% to 85% of the costs of the overall policing. So we want to make sure that, in other areas as well, we can see ways that more efficiently provide safety and security for Canadians.

Also, if you have any suggestions, anything else that you would like to add to what you've said today, if you wouldn't mind just forwarding it to our committee, that would be entered in as evidence or as testimony as well.

I think we see from all parties a general understanding that we have to become more efficient in the way we deliver this. Even from the police forces we see that, and I thank you for coming her this morning to help us understand this topic a little better.

We are going to suspend for one moment. Our next guests will come to us via teleconference.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome back to meeting number 69 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We're continuing our study on the economics of policing in Canada. In our second hour we have two witnesses appearing by video conference. We have yet to bring up one.

From Burnaby, British Columbia, testifying as an individual, we have Curt Taylor Griffiths, a professor in the school of criminology and coordinator of the police studies program at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada. In Vancouver it would be about a quarter to seven, so he will be here with us shortly, I am told. Professor Griffiths is considered to be an expert in the field of policing, community and restorative justice, corrections, legal reform, and social development. He is a co-author of many different books, research reports, and articles.

Also appearing by video conference from Carbondale, Illinois, we have Joseph Schafer, associate professor with the Center for the Study of Crime, Delinquency, and Corrections at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. He is president of the Society of Police Futurists International, a member of the Futures Working Group and a futurist in residence with the behavioural science unit of the FBI academy in Quantico, Virginia. Dr. Schafer's research examines police leadership, police discretion, police organizations, and program evaluation.

Our committee thanks these witnesses for helping us with our study on the costs of policing in Canada.

I will begin by welcoming Professor Schafer. We could begin with you, sir.

9:50 a.m.

Prof. Joseph Schafer Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today. I know this body has already heard some important and informative testimony so I will keep my comments brief in light of the time restrictions and what I believe you've already heard.

Matters of economics, sustainability, cost, and value in policing are of critical importance in considering the future of public safety services in any nation. Regrettably, in my opinion, these issues have largely been ignored. Resources more typically are infused into or drained away from police services and other public safety agencies with a limited understanding of how we might maximize benefits and minimize harm when those types of steps are necessary.

As a consequence, we don't really have a clear understanding of how to ensure we've received the most benefit possible from our public safety tax dollars. To me, the consideration of economics in policing comes down to the related issues of cost and value. Cost is easy to understand and relatively easy to measure. I suspect it both motivates many of the conversations around the economics of policing and it often tends to drive budgetary decision-making in this area.

Cost, however, does not give you, as decision-makers, all of the information you need to do your job with diligence. Discussions of economics in policing must also incorporate consideration of value. This is a more subjective issue, but in general, what is the value or return on investment for an infusion of public safety expenditures.

I'll focus my brief comments this morning on five major themes. I would note that my orientation is certainly conditioned by my American perspective on this issue, which you may find in this consideration either helpful or at times irrelevant. My orientation is also influenced by my work looking at future issues in policing. In conducting your important work, I would encourage you to not simply consider the current economic realities of policing and public safety in Canada, but also to consider how those realities may manifest themselves in the future, a situation that at times might be a radical departure from current circumstances.

First of all, existing performance measures in policing are convenient, though they're imperfect and limited in scope. They only tell us a small part of the narrative about the ability of police officers and organizations to influence the communities that they serve. While it's relatively easy to identify alternate performance indicators that might provide a more holistic understanding of the influence police have on communities, such as the fear of crime, a sense of safety among citizens, the provision of justice, measuring those indicators is challenging from both practical and fiscal perspectives.

Second, certainly using the United States as an example, we can find ample examples of troubled communities that have made appreciable cuts in policing services in the last five years and have experienced violent crime rates that have escalated rapidly. At the same time, we can also find examples of agencies that have made analogous staffing cuts and did not experience major increases in serious crime. Whether those distinctions are a consequence in the latter jurisdiction, whether there are other consequences, such as increases in disorder or minor crime, remains open to debate. There is not always a clear relationship between police staffing levels and crime rates. Crime reductions, whether driven by staffing or other considerations, are a function of a community's composition, the capacities and skill set of the police force, and importantly, the way in which policing resources are directed and deployed.

The point here is that increasing or decreasing police staffing by itself may not condition subsequent rates of crime and disorder in a direct manner. Our understanding of the staffing deployment crime and disorder relationships is imperfect and incomplete. More experience is needed and more evidence must be presented so we can have a more robust understanding. I would note that what we do understand about the relationship between police staffing and crime tends to be derived largely from urban areas. These dynamics may be quite different in jurisdictions serving small, rural, or first nation communities. We simply do not know.

Third, it is important that a conversation on economics in policing look beyond the crime rate in judging success. There are less evident outcomes of policing services, such as generating and sustaining public trust and confidence, fostering a sense of community, creating an environment in which people feel reasonably safe and secure, and providing citizens with quality government services that are responsive to the public's needs and expectations.

All of these are quite difficult to measure, and, at least in the United States, our experiences with recent economic difficulties do not clearly illuminate whether or not these intangibles have been affected by recent staffing and budget changes.

The value received from government investment in public safety may go beyond simple reported rates of crime and disorder. A community in which citizens are objectively safe but who live in fear and lack trust in the police is not a preferred outcome, in my opinion.

Fourth, I believe I have been asked to speak before you today because one of my areas of expertise is future studies as it relates to policing. Future thinking is not a process intended to strictly predict the future; rather, it is a process to help us make better decisions today. In effect, it is a form of strategic planning.

For the sake of brevity, I would note that a major implication of future studies is the observation that as groups engage in discussions about the economics of policing, it is critical that the discussion of the future does not always assume constancy or even a linear pace of change.

I would encourage your body to consider several questions. For instance, what challenges and opportunities will emerge for the commission and prevention of crime in the future? When, where, and how are citizens likely to wish to receive policing services in the future, a situation that might be quite different from the status we see today? How will emerging technologies create both challenges and opportunities to deliver quality public safety services and also address ancillary needs, such as training and education of police personnel? How might generational differences between those in the labour force today and those entering the labour force change the values and motivations of police personnel?

How might social and technological changes manifest themselves in the ways in which citizens wish to access police services? Today we might suspect that most citizens would prefer to personally see a police officer when they are reporting a victimization experience. In 2025, as an example, the typical crime victim may be perfectly content reporting their experiences electronically, or even by an artificial intelligence-based system. If that is the case, there are important implications for thinking about police service delivery into the future.

How will emergent social and technological transformations influence the ancillary costs of policing? For example, how might educational technologies be used to streamline when and how police personnel are trained and educated?

The fifth and final issue I would address is that this conversation should not simply be about cutting policing services and/or police personnel. It should include consideration of how services can be delivered in acceptable alternate ways and also by those other than sworn personnel. This might include using technology to facilitate police-citizen interactions that are not always direct and face to face. This might include the use of civilian and volunteer personnel.

Consideration of the latter should not be restricted to the traditional focus of off-loading low-end tasks onto non-sworn personnel. Civilians and volunteers might be ideally suited to take on some of the more challenging tasks and mandates confronting modern police agencies.

Though we certainly must use caution in deploying these strategies, we must also recognize that they may not always be available in smaller and more rural jurisdictions.

I would reinforce in this discussion that cost alone cannot win the day in considering these types of transformations. This body must examine whether the public will be adequately served and sufficiently satisfied with such changes. Will they still see that there is an appropriate value in the services they receive from the tax dollars they pay to support public safety?

I will conclude my comments with three brief suggestions for this committee and its efforts.

First, I would encourage you to approach this task with a futures orientation. Do not presume that there will be continuity in when, where, and how police operations are conducted. Do not presume that the public safety expectations of the public will remain the same. Do not presume that the motivation and skills of police personnel will be stable. Do not presume that the nature and volume of crime will look the same 20 years from now as it did 20 years ago. The future presents both challenges and opportunities for us. Be aware of the former and seek ways to capitalize upon the latter.

Second, bear in mind that errors can take a long time to correct when considering issues of public safety. An unpopular decision to stop sending first responders to immediately take a report for a given criminal incident might over time be found sufficiently unpopular with citizens, but the consequences of that error are likely relatively minimal and relatively easy to reverse. Alternately, a decision that results in a failure to effectively address emergent delinquent conduct among youth might result in a generation of future offenders being created, and once that creation has occurred the consequences of that error can take decades to be resolved.

Finally, though resources are tight, as an academic I would encourage this body to continue to seek evidence-based solutions and demand evidence-based evaluation of any changes that are made. In 1936, sociologist Robert Merton wrote a classic essay in which he discussed what he termed the “unanticipated consequences of purposive social change”. His implication for this body in that essay is that it is important to use evidence and experience to guide choices. Moving forward, it is also important to use evidence to ensure your changes achieve the desired results. Perhaps most importantly, in seeking to monitor results, it is important to look for things we did not expect, to seek to detect both the mistakes that might be made and to seek out the possibility that advantages have been realized that were not anticipated initially.

I commend this committee and its constituents for taking on such a difficult and important task. I thank you for the opportunity to speak before you today. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Dr. Schafer.

We have Professor Griffiths with us now. I introduced him earlier. At least I think he's with us. It looks like he's left the building. Anyway, Dr. Schafer, thank you. We were trying to get a setup. We've had some difficulties with the audio into Burnaby, British Columbia, and Professor Griffiths was with us. He's just left. I'm anticipating that we'll be able to come back. Maybe they've moved to a different room; I'm not certain.

We'll go into a first round of questioning.

Dr. Schafer, and to our committee, if Professor Griffiths comes back, I will probably break right there and go to him and hear his testimony.

Mr. Norlock, would you begin, please.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you to the witness, thank you for making yourself available, Professor Schafer.

I'm going to start off with referring to the previous witness. There was a discussion as to whether or not you can achieve savings within a deployed police force with a reduction in certain personnel. In my past I was with a deployed police force. We were able to do that by three police detachments within a smaller jurisdiction combining their administration. You can reduce the number of administrative personnel and ancillary civilian jobs while keeping the same number of front-line police officers in the field.

Of particular interest to me—in some of the biography I read and some of the issues that you've dealt with—are different forms of criminal justice, and, of course, the time a person is with the police. Before I left policing some dozen or so years ago, the Ontario criminal justice system was adopting the restorative justice regime. I think its roots were in New Zealand through the Maori, the healing circles. It had to do with positive shaming. The victim and the person with the anti-social type behaviour would be put in the same room. They would not go through the criminal justice system. That relieved in the future the person's quasi-criminal or anti-social behaviour, and thus reduced costs.

I wonder if you've looked at that at all in your studies.

10:05 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

That's not something I would claim to have personal expertise on. I think in general your assessment is correct. If we think particularly about first-time or low-severity offenders part of the conversation for achieving public safety savings may be in identifying programs through which we can achieve a long-term crime reduction outcome with that offender outside of conventional public safety criminal justice responses. Potentially that could achieve both a savings at the initial point when they have contact with the justice system but also hopefully it could reduce their proclivity to offend in the future and therefore achieve a long-term savings as well.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you.

I also observed that this past January you attended the Summit on the Economics of Policing. Can you tell the committee what your role there was and of any best practices you may have taken with you, or brought away with you, or some suggestions? You have already talked about some of those suggestions in your preamble. I just wonder if you have anything in addition to say, especially on those issues surrounding your attendance at the summit in January.

10:05 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

Yes, sir.

My role was similar, I believe, to my role here today, to provide some discussion for the attendees at that program about this notion of futurist thinking, about this notion of not simply anticipating a linear progression of both the problems in the environment in which public safety operates, and to be not just aware of emerging challenges but emerging opportunities.

To the comments I presented earlier, one of the clear examples we can see that's very germane in my normal daily life in college and university education is the radical and rapid changes in how people are being provided opportunities to learn, using technology to accomplish things that even a few years ago were not possible in the college classroom and in the high school classroom.

It's only a matter of time before it would be logical to look at those same types of ideas and ask whether we could realize efficiencies in the ancillary aspects of public safety by rather than requiring several dozen people at a time to attend a particular training session, facilitate completion through online platforms. The possibilities we may be able to see in that area, even in the next two to three years, are light years away from how most people have considered online education and training for the last 10 to 15 years. It's going to be a radically different environment.

I think that in terms of many of our past concerns about online education, of online training being a very poor alternative to face-to-face contact, in reality we're going to see some very strong possibilities that could both enhance training and also substantially reduce costs.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much for that.

I noticed something in the information I have about you, and I wonder if you could point this committee to police forces, whether they be in the United States of America or perhaps European countries, countries that have similar policing structures to those in Canada and the U.S., particularly Canada. How have they dealt with the economics of policing vis-à-vis either stagnant.... When I say “stagnant” I mean funding models that are relatively constant or that don't grow at an exponential rate. How have they been able to adjust their service delivery and still maintain a high level of productivity? That means solving crime and meeting with community expectations, which are not, as you would know, always the same.

I wonder if you would be able to provide some examples to our researchers, and perhaps comment right now because we may end up asking for, as additional witnesses, some of those police forces or agencies.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly, as we have about 30 seconds on this round.

10:10 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

Yes, I can certainly reflect on that and provide some additional names.

One agency that certainly comes to mind, which I've had some discussions with, is the Colorado Springs Police Department. They have a very challenging tax structure that compounds their budget reductions. They have done what I think are some very innovative strategies that they've deployed to address these types of issues.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Dr. Schafer and Mr. Norlock.

We'll now move to Madam Doré Lefebvre.

You have seven minutes.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Dr. Schafer, for being here with us at this hearing of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Your comments are greatly appreciated.

My first question is related to research and innovation. Many of the witnesses who appeared before the committee have said that it might be important to invest in research and innovation and to create a department or national agency where best practices could be made available to all police services, urban or rural, throughout the country. I know that there are several research and innovation agencies in the United States.

Do you think that this would be a good way to transfer information among the various police services? Do those types of agencies function well? Are they used to good advantage in the United States?

10:10 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

Yes, I think that a distinction could also be made in your discussion about efforts to create a research clearing house, a way to centralize what is known from various agencies. I believe in reviewing some of the earlier materials the committee has heard that there have been discussions of the website CrimeSolutions.gov.

The problem-oriented policing centre also provides a way whereby agencies can pass on small research projects and experiential projects they have completed, and then that is compiled and collated so that other agencies can learn from those examples. I think that's one perhaps relatively inexpensive way to centralize knowledge.

The other format might be more in line with our National Institute of Justice, and ways in which our federal government seeks to fund and support the creation of new knowledge. I think it's important to know that there is a distinction. Certainly, both of those activities are quite important, but in economically challenging environments, funding robustly the creation of new knowledge may be far more challenging. A slightly more austere approach might be simply to create a mechanism by which agencies can share their experiences and best practices with one another.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much.

I have a brief question concerning the privatization of police services. You may be more familiar than we are with that type of operation. What do you think of the privatization of police services?

I know that that is done more frequently in the United States. Does it work well? Would you recommend it?

10:10 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

Privatization is something that needs to be approached with a great deal of caution. Certainly, any government agency, any public service organization, might have somewhat inflated costs, might not be quite as lean in its operation as a private corporation, but in my opinion there is also some truth to the popular phrase that you get what you pay for. I think at times that privatization—the increasing experience in the U.S., although it's still somewhat mixed—while it might save costs, also reduces value. That enters into that subjective area that I mentioned earlier in passing, whereby it becomes a bit of a matter of personal opinion whether we are willing to accept a lesser quality of service in exchange for a reduced cost of that service.

I think savings certainly can be achieved, but often that may be at the expense of having personnel conducting duties who are less trained, less equipped, less prepared, less educated. It's certainly a function of what we are expecting people to do. We can see examples in the United States of very successful privatization efforts for discrete, specific, narrow policing tasks where it makes little sense to have a full-time, sworn, uniformed, equipped officer doing what amounts to little more than a security function. As to having private security personnel engaging in a broader level of public safety patrolling and handling incidents, I think that becomes a much more complicated circumstance.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much.

At the beginning of your intervention, you talked about a more collaborative approach among police services, and if I understood correctly, the various social services.

We lost the lighting and we could no longer see you.

10:15 a.m.

Professor, Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Southern Illinois University, As an Individual

Prof. Joseph Schafer

Yes, I think I sat still for too long.