Public Safety Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[Berry Vrbanovic]

The report covers a wide variety of factors that have contributed to that $500 million, but part of it is addressing crimes that traditionally have fallen under federal jurisdiction: things like cybercrime, gun smuggling, the drug trade, and so on. As a result of funding changes in the RCMP and legislative requirements and so on, municipal governments have had to take on the responsibility for funding many of these issues through our municipal police forces in order to address them in our communities.

More recently, for example, since that report was originally written, I know there have been other challenges that municipalities have faced. As part of my study, last year I was out in P.E.I. where I heard from a small police force about the need to purchase a live scan unit. They've transitioned from doing manual fingerprinting to doing it all automated. In the long run it's a good thing and will likely save dollars, but for small departments that have to put out $50,000 towards a live scan unit mid-year, it is a big issue.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I understand.

You mentioned cybercrime and gun-related issues. What about drug and gang-related crime? Are municipal police forces' responsibilities increasing in those areas because of federal legislation, and so on and so forth?

[Berry Vrbanovic]

I think you're really getting at the crux of my point here today, which is that the lines are blurred in many of these areas in terms of which aspect of responsibility lies with which order of government. That's where we'd certainly welcome the opportunity to begin this conversation with the government, with other parties that have vested interests in this area around roles and responsibilities so that we start getting some clarity on some of these things. Ultimately that will then lead to that conversation around resources.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Do you find there's a bit of a dual message? First of all, I think the government's line would probably be that the federal government is responsible for the Criminal Code, and the provinces and municipal police forces are responsible, pretty much, for all aspects of enforcement and therefore the federal government doesn't really have a major responsibility to fund policing across the land.

Do you find there's a dual message being sent when, for example, despite this message of respect for jurisdictions, the government brings in a temporary police recruitment fund which is used to fund things like the Eclipse program in Montreal, and then withdraws funding under the notion that policing is really a municipal or provincial responsibility? Aren't we getting two messages here? Doesn't that make the issue a little murkier from your perspective? On the one hand the government is saying that it's provincial and municipal, but then offers a little pot of money to help recruit police officers, and then says it won't renew it, and so on and so forth. Isn't that contradictory?

[Berry Vrbanovic]

The fact that there has been a focus on this topic of economics of policing, that the national summit was brought together, and the messages from the minister indicate a willingness to begin this dialogue about roles and responsibilities.

You specifically touch on the issue of the police officer recruitment fund. It's fair to say that obviously this government recognized that there was value in supporting municipalities around this issue with the one-time fund. Clearly, municipalities saw the value that came out of the fund. Much like the discussion we're having with the government and all the political parties right now around a new long-term infrastructure plan, we're now ready to have a new phase of discussion around policing.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Don't you think that the government said we have a contribution to make, but we no longer have a contribution to make? I'm just saying that maybe it doesn't augur well for a future discussion.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thirty seconds.

[Berry Vrbanovic]

I don't want to get into a debate between the government and the opposition on this issue. My point is that we did see value in it and we see value in continuing a dialogue around what the relationship in the future needs to be like between municipalities and the government when it comes to policing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Monsieur Rousseau, for three minutes, please.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

My question is for Mr. Vrbanovic.

We can anticipate budget cuts of $140 million at the Canada Border Services Agency and $190 million at the RCMP. I have several municipalities along the Canada-U.S. border; my riding is close to the State of Vermont. What effect will these cuts have on public safety in these municipalities, and mainly on the downloading of responsibility to municipal and provincial police forces? What will be the cost of this?

I'd like your opinion on the matter?

[Berry Vrbanovic]

It's fair to say that our members across the country, particularly those in border communities, are concerned when we talk about any cuts in some of these areas, particularly if any of these cuts end up playing out on our streets and in our communities. What worries us as municipalities is that when these things happen, what role are we going to need to play in terms of filling the gaps that are a result of this, particularly in terms of our municipal forces.

It starts getting to the kind of thing that our 2008 report talked about. As various departments experience fiscal challenges and so on, how does that ultimately play out on the streets of our communities and lead us to the need to have clarity around those roles?Ultimately, how do we collectively best resource them?

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Precisely, this has been a concern in my riding for a number of years; there was a murder associated with illegal immigration. A student in my riding was murdered. In my riding, immigrants sometimes cross the border running.

They're crossing a farmer's field.

Aside from that, municipalities do not get many services from provincial police forces. What will be the effect out in the field?

[Berry Vrbanovic]

There is a lack of clarity on what the impact is going to be on the ground on many of these issues and hence we believe there needs to be more dialogue among everyone concerned. The summit and the focus of this committee on the economics of policing is a beginning of an indication of a willingness to explore what this new relationship needs to look like going forward.

We applaud the committee for looking at this issue. We think it's the beginning of a dialogue that will ultimately help us better address these issues in our communities and keep our communities safer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much to both of you for appearing before our committee. You say you applaud our committee. We want to applaud both our guests this morning for taking the time to share some of the very concerns that they have in Brooks and on Brooks council, and also in the FCM. We appreciate your testimony and we thank you for that.

Ms. Sharkey, thank you for coming in early. We certainly appreciate that as well.

We are going to suspend and allow some other witnesses to prepare to appear. We'll be back in one minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'd like to call this committee back to order. As already stated, we're the public safety and national security committee. We're continuing our study on the economics of policing in Canada. For this panel, we're pleased to hear from three different witnesses.

First of all, appearing here in Ottawa in the committee room, we have Mr. Kai Liu. He is the police chief of the Cobourg Police Service. Welcome.

Testifying by video conference from Taber, Alberta, we have the chief of the Taber Police Service, Chief Alf Rudd. Welcome to you.

Appearing from Medicine Hat, Alberta, we have the chief of the Medicine Hat Police Service, Chief McGrogan.

Our committee wants to thank all three of you for appearing before us today. We'd like you to keep your opening statements to about seven or eight minutes, if that's possible.

We'll begin with our police chief who is with us here, and that is Mr. Liu.

Sir.

[Chief Kai Liu, Chief, Cobourg Police Service]

Good morning, sir, and committee members.

Let me give you a bit of background of Cobourg as well as the previous service where I was the police chief for the past four years.

Having spent 22 years policing Ottawa with the Ottawa Police Service, it is always a pleasure to return to the city. For the past four years I was the chief of police for the Gananoque Police Service, a small Ontario town along the St. Lawrence River in the Thousand Islands. In September 2012 I was appointed chief of police for the Cobourg Police Service.

The town of Cobourg is well known for its quality of life, beautiful location along the shore of Lake Ontario, and close proximity to VIA Rail and Highway 401. It's approximately 20 minutes east of Oshawa. For many it has become a place of choice for retirement. In 2006 the census noted the population at 18,000, a 6% increase from 2001. Currently, in the latest census in 2011, Cobourg had a population of 18,519. The median age of the population is 46 years of age, where the Ontario median age is 39.

In Cobourg, our uniform patrol is performed by four platoons composed of five officers on a 12-hour shift rotation and supported by five criminal investigators and a community programs officer. The seniority of the 32 officers ranges from 30 years to recruit level. Civilian support complement is 13 full-time and 17 part-time employees. There are also five casual employees used for cellblock monitors when we have prisoners in our cells.

For us in Ontario the core functions and roles of policing, as mentioned before, are governed by the Ontario Police Services Act, which lists five core functions of policing that must be provided by every municipality, regardless of its size. We must meet a minimum threshold of providing adequate and effective police service in accordance with the needs of the community. The core functions are crime prevention, law enforcement, assistance to victims of crime, public order maintenance, and emergency response. The municipality is also responsible for providing the infrastructure and the administration necessary for providing adequate and effective police service.

The police services board is responsible for governance of the policing model in place in the municipality and shares, along with the municipality, the responsibility for providing adequate and effective policing service to the community. The chief of police answers directly to the board and is responsible for the administration and the day-to-day operations of the police service in such manner that meets the community needs.

As in any municipality, taxes, finance, and available grants have major implications. Cobourg is no different in this respect. The police administration has shown excellent fiscal control by being under the forecasted budget for the previous four years. In 2013 our annual operating budget is $5.6 million. It's a 1.5% increase from 2012, which had a $5.5 million budget.

Recent use of technology has improved operational efficiencies such as the use of in-car communication devices, a special BlackBerry that allows officers to have immediate access to CPIC information. The Cobourg Police Service has also successfully capitalized on generating revenue by providing third-party criminal record checks to help offset the rising cost of policing. In 2012 the revenue generated was just over a half a million dollars.

Further, the service is now actively investigating other opportunities for efficiencies, for example the outsourcing of our communications centre to larger police services.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Liu.

We have two Alberta police chiefs here, and I don't want to prefer one over the other, but I'll perhaps go with Chief Rudd first, please, and Mr. McGrogan after that.

[Chief Alf Rudd, Chief, Taber Police Service]

Thank you, committee Chair.

My comments on this subject today ironically are against a background of prosperity. The situation in Alberta includes healthy immigration, a growing economy, low taxes, rising housing costs, and a low rate of unemployment. I ask that you further consider this context. Over the past 40 years, I've had many experiences in policing, including rural, municipal, aboriginal, and international environments. The past 15 years have been from the desk of the chief. What I've concluded is that the police work is still the easy part. With some exception, it is what we collectively and consistently do very well, despite the challenges and escalating complexities presented by more sophisticated crime trends and technology. There's always been one constant, and that is this. To protect society, the police will always be required, and they must be willing and able to jump over the boards and go into the corners. This is how the core function gets done, and this cannot be forgotten in efforts to control costs or increase efficiencies. I would encourage any decision-making to take that into account and not lose sight of this core function.

Considerable time has been spent in Alberta in producing a framework to guide policing into the future. A consultative process resulted in nine comprehensive strategies for management, operations, and finances. As an example, the framework is responsible for guiding the rollout of a single-source records management system for all policing agencies in Alberta to strengthen and support another pillar of the framework, and that is taking a truly intelligence-led approach to law enforcement and community safety. The framework guided the formation and operation of a number of specialty enforcement and support units, all intended to be working in an efficient and integrated structure. All of this is then funded through the Province of Alberta, while being administered and operated by the various police and enforcement agencies which host them.

The final strategy in the framework was to devise a fair and equitable cost-sharing formula for all Albertans. This was done through a consultative process, as I pointed out. A recommendation there would be that we implement a distributed model of sharing costs among all the residents of Alberta.

We just completed a negotiation with the Taber Police Association. The process in Alberta was guided by the Police Officers Collective Bargaining Act. After two negotiations for this agency, and observing the process across the province over the past years, I believe it is fair characterization to say that this particular act ultimately and brutally forces municipalities to give in to associations, and provide them with the demands that they are asking for. This occurred during mediation with a mediator.

With a 34% increase since 2006, little if any regard has been held for extending the slightest consideration about what's fair to the municipality and its ratepayers, and I'm speaking from the perspective of a smaller community. As a result, wages account for 80% of police budgets here and across the country. It's unreasonable to think that any manipulation of our already-stressed operational funds will result in altering the course of police economics. I think a strategy here might serve us well in Alberta, which is that we collaboratively negotiate, and we may include provincially sponsored assistance in that process.

In Taber, we are experiencing robust immigration to our area from Mexico, as the Mennonites of the Mexican colonies flee drug violence. Some 15,000 to 20,000 have arrived over the past 15 years, the majority arriving in the past four years. Unfortunately, some of these people are themselves involved in the drug trade and have imported their criminal behaviour with them. Operating out of our small-town community, an hour north of the international border, a robust trafficking operation was flourishing. A joint project resulted in numerous large seizures of cocaine and conspiracy charges.

My point here is that there are cutbacks to the RCMP and a realignment of their federal services, which will have a diminishing effect on the capacity of those critical partners in fighting this problem. While savings can be realized by the federal organization in this realignment, border integrity and the activities of the international drug cartels must remain a priority.

When I began policing in Alberta in 1971, there were fewer than one million people, and we had 3,000 mental health beds. Our population today exceeds three million, and we have approximately 300 mental health beds.

We are continually pressured by this gap in mental health services as we deal with the social determinants of crime: addiction, mental illness, homelessness, broken families, poverty, illiteracy, and general issues of moral decay that are becoming commonplace. The job description of a police officer has had to evolve, requiring increased and specific training from the recruit training syllabus through to ongoing professional development. I'm wondering where these savings from these other ministries have gone and wonder if some of those savings cannot be realized by the policing authorities as these areas of responsibility have been transferred onto the streets for the police to deal with.

Those, gentlemen, are my five points. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll move back to Medicine Hat, to Chief McGrogan.

[Chief Andy McGrogan, Chief, Medicine Hat Police Service]

Good morning.

First, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak. I echo Chief Rudd's comments in many ways. We're an hour and a half apart down the Crowsnest Highway from each other.

I'll give you a little context. Medicine Hat is a city of about 62,000 folks in the southeastern corner of Alberta, somewhat isolated from bigger centres such as Calgary and Edmonton, which creates some of its own issues. The Medicine Hat Police Service has 115 authorized strength, 156 staff overall. Our budget is approximately $20 million, $15 million of which is paid by the taxpayer through the mill rate. The other $5 million is paid through fine revenue and other sources, such as grants, including the federal grant.

Some of my comments today may be a little more pointed. I wanted to get to some of the issues that I think we see are affecting the economics of policing. From a federal perspective, we again recognize that policing is a provincial issue, but obviously the federal government has a large role to play in policing across the country. Every Canadian, when you're stopped by a police officer, whether it be in Newfoundland or small-town Saskatchewan, expects the same type of professional service. I think we strive to do that across the country.

Before I start talking about the some of the negatives, because we're all quick to do that, I want to say that a really good example of federal dollars in the last number of years has been the funding that the federal government has given the Police Sector Council. The Police Sector Council has built, for example, a number of core competency suites, job descriptions, in relation to our policing positions. They have been very beneficial tools for many police services that are smaller in size, including the Medicine Hat Police Service. You can imagine the type of expertise and resources something like that takes, and they have been very beneficial tools. So I just want to thank the Police Sector Council. They did not pay me for that commercial, by the way.

Some of the complexities and some of the issues that we face in a small, isolated police service involve, because of our size, the ability to build expertise and leadership in specialized training. We do depend on the federal government, through the Canadian Police College, to provide a lot of that training and we found that it has been very efficient and helpful over the years. The executive development program; the senior police administration courses; a lot of technical police training such as polygraphs, major crimes and techniques, and all that kind of thing through the Canadian Police College are essential to the development of our police officers in the city of Medicine Hat.

I know that the whole RCMP model is being considered right now. I've been involved in some discussions in relation to national policing services. National policing services are extremely important to us. They're usually, as you know, provided through the RCMP. Things like, obviously, our criminal record data bank, are the types of things that can only be done federally, and we depend on them. New technologies, such as DNA and DNA banking, and all those types of things, are extremely important to us. As a small service, we could never provide that service, as you can imagine. So we are very dependent on the provincial government and the federal government.

If I was to have a wish, it would be very beneficial if the federal government and the provincial government could get together and determine exactly what the role of each is in relation to the funding of policing and what responsibilities each would take on, and make that clear throughout the provinces. I know that's a very complex wish, if we want to call it that, but it's extremely important.

A frustration I'll mention in closing—I have a number of issues here—is that one of the things I think is a really big issue is we see a lot of legislation that is passed down from the federal government that is very complex and it creates resource drains. I'll use drug recognition as an example. It's good legislation, but some of the legislation that comes down needs some framework around it, it needs some funding that comes with it, some sustainable funding. These things affect us in our operations on the street every day.

The chiefs met yesterday in Lacombe, Alberta, to discuss common issues. We all mentioned that we're kind of the hole at the bottom of the sink. When everybody goes home at four o'clock and on the weekends, we're it, and it's very complex. Just to have some form of structure around some of the issues we face would be extremely beneficial.

Drug traffic, as you know, is a good example of something that used to the responsibility of the RCMP. In Medicine Hat in 1980, when I started here, we had RCMP officers enforcing drugs and drug legislation. That went away; now we have teams partially provincially funded through ALERT in Alberta. They're quite effective. The funding is always rather tentative, but it's really important for us.

One area that is a major frustration for us involves the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. We have a very difficult time getting competent prosecutors in this area. It seems that usually we get lawyers who take this on, for the most part on an ad hoc basis. They're not paid very much money, and I guess you sometimes get what you pay for. It's very frustrating. We work very hard to disrupt organized crime through drug trafficking investigations, and then we get to prosecution and there seems to be a lack of ability to prosecute, at times.

That's a bit of a frustration and an example of the type of things that we definitely depend on the federal government for.

I hope my approach was adequate. I want to thank you for allowing me to share a few of my issues.

Thanks so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Chief McGrogan, and thank you to all three of our presenters.

We're going to go into the rounds of questions. We're going to cut the first round to a five-minute round .

We'll begin with the government side, please.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks through you to the witnesses for appearing today.

I'll start off by saying that I hope this committee doesn't descend into the political stuff that I just heard a few minutes ago. There has been a 26% increase in CBSA officers. Some border crossings have three vehicles a day, so you have to rationalize where you put the CBSA officers.

We talk about federal responsibility concerning crime. The federal government makes criminal law in this country. Does that mean that it's responsible for paying for all the criminal enforcement?

Let's look at our Constitution; it lays down quite specifically whose responsibilities lie where. But in modern times we realize that by acting together in a cooperative stance—and I'm talking about federal, provincial, and municipal governments—we get a lot more done. And so, when in this country a few years ago we saw the need for extra police officers, because there was a need and we recognized the need, we worked with our provincial and municipal counterparts and brought in a temporary fund to assist in the recruitment and training of new officers. Note the word “assist“ there. When we as a government were faced with requests from municipal governments for additional funding, we made permanent the gas tax, so municipalities get from the federal government, now every year, a guaranteed amount of money.

So let's get out of that. What I'd like to talk about in the economics of policing is not that we need more money, because there is a limit; there is a limit to how much the taxpayer can pay. When I look within Ontario, I see that in some municipalities up to 50% of the municipal budget is as a result of public safety costs.

I'm very impressed, quite frankly—and that's why I was hoping Chief Liu could be here—with some of the innovative ways the Cobourg police department has met some of the challenges they have.

Chief Liu, you talked about the criminal background checks and how you've been able to modernize them and to help with policing costs. I am hoping you can go a little bit further into that.

I also notice the increased usage in police forces in Ontario—it's no secret that for 30 years I was a police officer—of volunteers and auxiliary police officers, especially at parades, to do those jobs that can be done by trained auxiliary police officers. Cobourg is a community that has a lot of events; almost every weekend there's some kind of festival, or something is going on to enhance the life of that community. I've seen how the police have been innovative, using Segways and ATVs.

Chief, could you talk to us about new and innovative ways that you have been able to look for additional sources of income within your budget? You mentioned BlackBerrys and how modern technology has assisted your department in doing more efficiently the job that you have to do.

[Chief Kai Liu]

Maybe let me start with this. Approximately four years ago the total police budget accounted for 30% of Cobourg's tax base. Today we've been able to chip away at it and reduce it slightly down to 27% for 2013.

The Cobourg Police Service does use volunteers extensively at many of its community events throughout the summer. From Labour Day to Thanksgiving there is a festival of some sort in the town. We have a permanent trailer at our beachfront, which is manned by volunteers, and so that saves us a lot of police officer resources.

Additionally, to further help reduce the costs of policing, we have been very successful in partnering with the RCMP, as they control the CPIC database, and in conducting third-party criminal record checks. Third-party criminal record checks are requested by large corporations. Whenever they hire somebody, whether in P.E.I. or British Columbia, the Town of Cobourg will provide the criminal record checks for that particular employee, and we generate revenue for that. That revenue is put directly back into the police budget.

Additionally, on the use of technology, because we were somewhat behind in Cobourg, we have skipped the laptops in the police cars and have now transitioned from having no technology in our police cars to having the BlackBerry. This is a special BlackBerry that has CPIC capability as well as record management capability. Now, when the officers are free to walk through parking lots and/or when they're conducting foot patrol, they can readily use the BlackBerry, where once they had to be tied to a police car or police station.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much. Our five minutes is up.

We'll now move over to Mr. Rafferty, please.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you all three for being here today. I'll try to get a question for each of you in this five minutes that I have.

Chief Rudd, it's you first. Populations are shifting right across the country. We heard from the witness from Brooks, Alberta, the deputy mayor, who's tying in an increase in domestic violence with foreign temporary workers and their families arriving in her community.

My question is not especially about that, but it's about first nations populations. We know that urban first nations populations are growing right across the country. I wonder if you can share some strategies that you're using with the shifting population, or with foreign temporary workers or any shifting population you may want to key in on.

What strategies are you using to deal with the changing police work, but still maintaining your budgets?