Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's almost as good, and sometimes...well, in deference to the minister I'll say almost as good. You're always thinking of my best interests. I appreciate that.

I will raise a couple of items, if I may, Mr. Chair. Through you, I thank the witnesses for appearing today.

The first item has to do with something Madame Doré Lefebvre brought up, relating to remands.

I can recall that quite a few years ago, when I was the court officer just up the creek from here in Pembroke, one of the ways the judge was able to reduce the number of people who breached his court orders.... If I remember correctly, 20% to 30% of the cases before him were for people on remand, on recognizance, or on probation. Of course, the only power courts have is over people who obey the court order. What he did was get tough on people who committed offences pursuant to their court orders.

I'll tell you what happened: the number of people on remand and the number of people who breached those things went way down. Sometimes it's not just about the government doing something; it's about the partners we work with, including judges and prosecutors.

The other thing that was brought up by the opposition and Mr. Rafferty—and because he's from northern Ontario, I know that first nations issues are important to him, as they are to all of us—because they are very important....

I belonged to an OPP unit that turned over the policing of the James Bay and Hudson Bay coast—that was the North East patrol unit—to the Nishnawbe Aski Nation. And what did they say to the Ontario government and I suspect to the federal government? They said they could do as good a job, if not better, with the existing resources. So we turned over the aircraft and a co-pilot, etc.

Something must have changed in the 15 years. I don't think the funding has changed, but I know there continues to be a need. I think it's important to say that in these transitions from traditional policing towards first nations policing, sometimes organizations need to look within themselves to see whether they're doing things the right way.

Commissioner Paulson, we are looking, as you know, because you have come before us, at the economics of policing. I think I may have mentioned this, but some municipalities in Ontario have policing budgets that are 50% of the municipal budget. Is this the same experience in provinces other than those policed by a provincial police force? Is that experience occurring in the rest of Canada, to your knowledge?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I can't say specifically 50%, but I know that some of the smaller communities that we service are struggling with the costs of policing.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Of course, we see governments looking at all their agencies with a view to reducing costs. That's not new, I don't think, in your experience as a police officer. I had 30 years with the OPP and can recall many times when the province had to look at their provincial police force and say that it would have to make do with a little less for a while, until the government got out of that tough period.

I can recall various ways in which the OPP planned to do those things. I would be very surprised—and I'll turn the question over to you—if, when you're meeting with your senior staff and are looking ahead.... Well, you don't know for sure what the government's going to do, but you have a fair idea.

Let's say there are some reductions in certain places. Do you not have a planning committee that comes to you and says, if this happens, here's where we'll find those efficiencies, etc.?

I think Canadians need to know that there are plans here.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Of course, we police at the three levels, and we do this.

For example, at the national level there is the deficit reduction action plan. We've done that; we have initiatives and we're re-calibrating. We do it provincially: each of my COs is doing it on a provincial basis. And municipally, with our partners in those municipalities we're doing the same thing.

I call it sometimes “doing less with less”, but doing things more efficiently and with more productivity attached.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

We will now move to Mr. Rousseau.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

My first question is for Malcolm Brown.

There is an investment of $24.1 million in the next budget to improve the integrity of programs for front-line operations. First, what does the “integrity of programs” mean? Does the government intend to set up automated border crossings that will be controlled remotely, as we have heard recently?

[Malcolm Brown, Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Rousseau.

My answer has two parts.

First off, I'd say that the $24.1 million, which was described accurately by you as program integrity, was really designed to focus on three or four areas.

One was a peak period strategy, which was to provide additional funding, particularly at the land border, when we know that traffic is very high. Canadians were experiencing undue wait times. To manage wait times, $5.5 million has been invested to help address and provide an appropriate level of both security and public service.

Other elements were to support the government's decision to end the situation where we had officers working alone. We call it the doubling-up initiative.

Those are a couple of the elements of the kinds of things we're doing.

In terms of your second question around remote control, we're working in part with the United States as part of the beyond the border action plan always on how we can use technology to facilitate, expand, and improve service. There are commitments under the beyond the border action plan to look at a couple of pilots in which we would use technology to allow ports to operate for expanded hours and that kind of thing.

The sense of “remotely” implies no human contact, strictly distance only. It would have to be a combined approach. We do know that the U.S. has used remote capacity at ports of entry with very low traffic and that's certainly part of the scope of issues that we'll be looking at.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Would than mean fewer front-line officers?

[Malcolm Brown]

No, I don't think it would. It might mean front-line officers working in different places. It might mean front-line officers doing a different kind of work. But there isn't necessarily a direct correlation between greater use of technology and a reduction of front-line officers.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I say that because in small communities near border crossings those front-line officers are very important to their communities, economically speaking, so that's why we're worried when we see those programs.

Second, where would those nine new NEXUS lines be in operation?

[Malcolm Brown]

I actually don't have the list with me. Through the chair, I can provide that list to the committee.

We've put them, I believe, in some of our high-traffic areas as well as a mixture of smaller ports of entry. I'm afraid I don't have the exact list with me, but I can obtain it easily enough and provide it through the chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have half a minute.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Paulson, the new budget is investing very few new amounts in the external review commission, for complaints and so on. The amount being earmarked for external complaint review commissions is 0.3% of the overall budget. In light of the events in recent years, could you tell me why this budget does not commit more money to those commissions?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you for your question. However, it is not up to me to make decisions about the external commission.

I think we want to have an arm's-length committee, so funding decisions about either the External Review Committee or the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP aren't within my control.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[Malcolm Brown]

I've just been handed the list. I can read off the nine sites very quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Please go ahead.

[Malcolm Brown]

The nine sites are in British Columbia—Abbotsford, Aldergrove, Douglas, and Pacific highways. In Ontario, they are Fort Erie, Queenston, Sarnia, and Windsor, and in Quebec, it's Lacolle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brown.

We'll now move to Mr. Payne, please, for five minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the officials for coming today. This is always an important time to review the supplementary estimates. I noticed that the minister and a number of folks have talked about the cybersecurity.

Mr. Guimont, was our government the first government to institute a cybersecurity strategy?

[François Guimont]

I must admit I'm fairly new to the position. I should have an answer to this and I don't. I would have to check, Mr. Chairman, to see if there was a strategy. I'm not aware of one. I would remember by reading the OAG report. So I think that the strategy we now have is a first, but I would want to confirm that with my staff to be definitive about it.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Will you get that answer for us?

[François Guimont]

For sure, I'll get that to the chair.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

The minister talked about a number of things at Canada Border Services; certainly the increase in front-line…percentage of 26%.

Mr. Brown, you talked about a number of Canada-U.S activities. Is there still a strategy to share facilities or those kinds of operations?

[Malcolm Brown]

Under the beyond the border action plan with the U.S., one of the areas where we still are negotiating with the United States is a set of pre-clearance negotiations. It is envisaged that we would potentially undertake operations in the U.S. and vice versa. They already do in the pre-clearance facilities in airports for example, which I think we're all familiar with. So yes, that is still envisaged.

The first step was an overall agreement on pre-clearance, which is still the subject of negotiations with the U.S.