Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2013

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Minister, and, well, Ms. Bergen, too, for the very interesting science lesson on flooding in southern Manitoba; I really appreciated it.

You know we are neighbours, you and I, and by the way, I'm always very excited to drive into your riding and see that big picture of you on that billboard as I come in from Minnesota. I'm not being sarcastic, Minister, I'm trying to butter you up so I get a positive response to my nice questions here.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

So far you're doing really well, John.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I can tell you where you can get one of those pictures for yourself, too. You could put my picture in your riding if you want.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I only have five minutes, Minister.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That shouldn't come off his time.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

This is a first nations policing question, Minister Toews. While the funding has come across—which is great, and there has been lots of pressure, I know, from first nations police services and from the opposition and probably within the government ranks to do something about this. It's nice to see the five-year funding with, I think, a small increase...1.5% over each year or something. There's something planned, anyway.

But there are some police services that are in much poorer shape than others. We have two first nations police services in northwestern Ontario. There is Treaty Three, whose policing is done mainly on the road system and communities that are on the road system, so they have support, particularly from the OPP. The Nishnawbe Aski Nation, which we have talked about before, is in real trouble. We have 39 communities, mostly fly-in: they don't have enough money to get officers out. Some officers are in there one, two, three weeks past their rotation cycle. Many of the communities have no policing at all. They have virtually no communication. Cell service is spotty at best in these communities.

I have two questions. The first question is, will you meet with Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service leadership in the near future? The second question is, will you be open to special funding for those first nations police services that are in difficulty? What happens is if the funding continues, if the status quo is maintained, these police services just simply try to build on failure.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Those are very good points, Mr. Rafferty. I note your interest in this particular file. You've spoken to me a number of times on this file. I appreciate your interest in it.

Yes, as I've said, we have this five-year funding. We secured not only the base but the top-up that was put in place, which grew every year, and also this 1.5%, which will—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Minister, I know my time is limited, so will you meet with the leadership?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Okay, I'll get to the point.

I have been meeting with first nations communities, including the national leadership as well as local leadership from Quebec, from Ontario. I've met with Manitoba. My officials would probably be in a better position to actually get stuff done, but if you feel there is any specific reason why I should speak with them directly, I'm certainly willing to entertain that request.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

The second part of the question was will you entertain, over the next five years, some increase in funding for those first nations police services that are in real trouble?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's the discussion that we need to have about how do we improve the first nations policing program. The five years actually gives us the ability to talk about it. Under the old system, where you're just one year, you really didn't have a chance to step back and say all right, where are we strong and where do improvements need to be made.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Will you entertain extra funding over the next five years?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's something of course for the finance minister, but I am prepared to listen to all reasonable requests to improve policing.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay. Let me ask you one last question.

I have about a minute or two?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have one minute.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Last year the committee visited Kingston Penitentiary and there was one facility there, a mental health facility. Not only did it deal with issues directly related to perhaps suicidal inmates and that sort of thing, but there were a number of Alzheimer's inmates there also. We were told at the time that there are no plans to continue that facility elsewhere or to deal in that sort of atmosphere with inmates who have mental health problems. Can I ask you what will happen to those inmates who need the mental health services that Kingston Penitentiary used to provide?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

As I understand it, the same services that are being provided in Kingston will be provided at other institutions. But you've raised another important problem—and I'm not avoiding; all I'm saying is that we see those same services continuing.

Really, if people have Alzheimer's, should they be in a federal penitentiary?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

That's certainly another question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It's a good question. Right now there are very few options, and that's the nature of the discussion I'm having with the provinces. There are individuals who are in prison who should not be in prison, because of their mental state. That is something I've talked about for the last number of years.

These are changes that need to be made. It doesn't help for Commissioner Head to get more and more money for mental health if that isn't the most effective way of dealing with specific kinds of individuals. As some of the population gets older, I think this is a very good question: is it in the public interest to have Alzheimer's patients in a federal penitentiary, whether it's medium or maximum security? If they need to be in an institution, shouldn't it be one with a health focus rather than a penal focus?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Rafferty, you're already getting close to a seven-minute round.

I know that the minister's time is limited. We're going to go to Mr. Norlock, I believe.

Or where are we going?

Do you want to suspend for a moment or two and allow the minister to go? I don't know his timeline.

Your one hour is up, Minister.

[Some hon. members]

More, more!

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll suspend for about 30 seconds and allow an opportunity for the minister to take his leave.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before us today for the estimates. We very much appreciate it.

We will suspend and will come back with the officials for the last hour.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We will call this meeting back to order. The minister has just appeared, and we are going to continue this meeting with the study of the estimates. We have the department heads before us.

We are going to continue where we left off. We are on five-minute rounds.

Mr. Norlock, we were just coming up to your turn. I tried to give you an opportunity to speak to the minister, but you have the departmental heads here.