Public Safety Committee on April 16th, 2013

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here.

I have three questions, one for each of you. I hope I can get to them.

Chief Superintendent Couture, you indicate that one of the main functions of the OPP is, of course, supporting first nations police services. What's happened in Ontario—and I'll basically have the same question for you, Mr. McFee—is that first nations police services have fallen on hard times. It's difficult to provide that service, and I can use one example in northern Ontario of the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service, which the OPP used to run in that area. I heard from a former OPP officer that when they left and NAPS took over, they were in fact left in good shape. Well, NAPS is no longer in good shape.

I wonder if you have any comments about first nations policing and particularly the economics of policing. When you have scores of communities that are fly-in communities, not enough police officers, and not enough money—quite frankly—to run the service, do you see any way to make that better?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

Sir, if I may, I'll give a limited response. Our commissioner may have more to say on that on Thursday.

The Ontario First Nations Policing Agreement has had some challenges in the last six years, as I recall. There are two services within each region that I deal with. I can tell you that our partnerships with them are tremendous. We work side by side. The relationships are very effective and good. But they are funded and functioning within a structure that is external to ours. I do see some of the pressures and challenges that they deal with. I can't give you specifics or comment specifically.

What I can tell you is that we're very strong partners. For example, we work 24/7 with Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory Police and the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service. We will support them—we have continuously and we always will. So there's an excellent front-line team approach supporting each other. Quite frankly, they support us as well.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You must be feeling the budgetary pressures to provide the support, particularly in a first nations police service such as Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service with all the fly-in communities. According to NAPS, OPP support has been dropping. I'm assuming it's because of budgetary reasons that you can't continue to provide that support. Is there a way around that? Is there something that could be done in terms of the economics of policing?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

Unfortunately, sir, I have to limit my thoughts on that. I do know it's a first nations policing agreement issue. It is a funding issue that has been highly discussed, I've been aware, in the last few months. It is a challenge for several band councils, but I can say OPP support for them will always be very strong.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. McFee, you talked about 70% to 80% of calls or the things that you deal with in Saskatchewan not being crime related. I would suggest that perhaps in first nations communities, or where there is a large aboriginal presence, that's probably even higher than 70% to 80%. I wonder if you could comment on that and comment in general on first nations police services.

[Dale McFee]

For sure you're right. There are a couple of things in relation to that. Certainly in the province of Saskatchewan, first nations policing is a significant role for us. In my former role as president of the CACP, we stated what the value of first nations policing was, and we continue with that. I think though there are a couple of things to remember here.

When you talk about calls—and being Métis, I'm adamant to a certain degree on this, our issues are not first nations' ones. Our issues are about marginalized people in relation to.... The word “marginalized” can be debated as well, but when we went to Scotland, it turned out that 15 of the key indicators were the same as they were for Prince Albert. Scotland is white and homogeneous. Prince Albert has many first nations people and high mobility. To make a long story short, we have to deal with those underlying roots and those underlying problems that we're trying to address, and part of that is first nations policing.

One of the things we're asking for—and it's possibly a role for the federal government—is to have funded first nations representation in our CORs. We have them there now, first nations government, but it's a hardship for them. I think they have a role in being part of a greater solution of problem solving. I think when we're in on the ground and we're working exclusively with first nation providers, that gives us a better understanding of culture and a better understanding of solutions, and we can actually remove some of these conditions that are driving the problems.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do I have one minute for Mr. Federico?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have 45 seconds.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Deputy Chief Federico, we heard from a British police superintendent that one of the strategies they used—and I'm asking you because you're from a large municipality force—was to get their police officers out of cars and away from their computers, and to get them doing most of their work with BlackBerrys from which they have access to things akin to CPIC and so on, or those sorts of things. They reported higher client satisfaction, more visibility, and better timing and outcomes. Is that something that Toronto has looked at?

[D/Chief Michael Federico]

Yes, it is. Thanks for that question.

A greater investment in community engagement and contact is typically associated with “getting out of the cars”, but as the two other speakers have pointed out, there needs to be a balance. We still have to be able to respond to calls through service, particularly emergency or crisis calls. There's no question that modern policing requires us to have face-to-face, direct communication with people. It can be virtual by way of communications devices. There need to be sufficient resources—that is, enough officers—to engage in conversations, collaborations, communication, and partnerships with our community. That means we need to be present in the community, seen in the community, talking to people in the community. So we need to make time for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Welcome, Mr. Calkins, to committee. I know Mr. Calkins is a member of Parliament where there are a lot of first nations, with Hobbema and Samson Reserve. I don't know if that's the point of your question, but we look forward to your five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Well, how can it not be now, Mr. Chair?

Mr. McFee, I do have a specific set of questions for you, and then I have a broader question for all of the witnesses. As Mr. Sorenson, the chair, pointed out, I represent the constituency of Wetaskiwin, the city of Wetaskiwin and the town of Ponoka, and the counties immediately adjacent to one of the largest groups of bands in western Canada. The Samson, Ermineskin, Louis Bull, and Montana bands have about 16,000 first nations people living there.

There are over 40 RCMP officers stationed in Hobbema. There's a large contingent of RCMP in Ponoka and Wetaskiwin who spend a lot of their time dealing with issues in these communities. So I'm very curious to find out from your perspective—understanding that Prince Alberta has its own police force—what I can take back to my riding in terms of being able to get the RCMP, who are the police on the ground in most of the communities that I represent, involved in getting up to speed on what you're doing there. I ask because it sounds to me, as you just mentioned, that it's not an issue of race or whatever; it's an issue of those indicators setting off a process, which you've identified, for intervention. I was just wondering what experience you have had in Saskatchewan that I can take back to the RCMP in the communities I represent.

[Dale McFee]

I would welcome a group coming to the folks who lead our initiative in Saskatchewan. We'd have open arms to them. If we can share anything to help, that's what it's all about, first and foremost. With communities such as these, it's important that we give the ability to act locally. There are lots of lessons learned that we could provide in this particular area.

One thing I touched on that I haven't mentioned today when talking about the franchise model is that a COR, if you use that acronym for a centre of responsibility, is technically a master franchise. It was designed to support up to six hubs. In areas such as you have, very similar to Prince Albert, if you don't address the feeder systems in those particular areas with a similar type of process whereby you're actually on the ground and delivering results, nothing will matter, because the feeder system will just overwhelm you.

One master franchise supports six hubs; it's all connected together. Nothing is lost in translation: it's the same people—the same individuals, the same families—who need help. What you're in essence doing with intervention/prevention is asking them what you can do to help.

The way the justice system in essence is designed today, for the majority of stuff, is that we wait until people are in the system and we tell them how to fix them. The reality is that 95% of it is predictable. So if it's predictable, why aren't we asking them what we can do to help, spending a dollar wisely and getting them the help at the right time, which is more cost-effective and more efficient and gives them a better chance to succeed?

Doing that while maintaining this other group, for which we need to have a similar model, is not so helpful. Obviously they have to be responsible for the justice system.

Those are some of the things I would offer comments on.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I have a couple of minutes left. I'm going to offer a broader question.

Back when I was significantly younger than I am today, I volunteered for the Edmonton Police Service when I was going to university. I would do things at community policing stations. For example, I would fill out traffic accident reports and do other minor tasks such as answering the telephone, basically doing a number of things on behalf of the police service that would free up the constables stationed there to do other, more meaningful work that only they could do.

I wonder whether each of you could offer any experiences in your areas about how other types of volunteering—not just auxiliary services, but volunteers in your police services—may be utilized more efficiently to enable officers to do their jobs and get some of these minor tasks off their desks.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

First of all, our auxiliary program is tremendous. I'm glad to hear that you experienced something similar.

We have 850 across the province. They work hand in hand with our officers. They don't work independently. They don't do police work on their own; they have to be with a police officer at all times. But I can say that even within a regional context, they are visible everywhere. They increase our visibility; they contribute to our crime prevention initiatives, our partnerships, etc., and are a great resource to us. But there are certain limitations as to what we can and cannot do with them, and these are outlined in internal policy and in the Police Services Act as well.

Broadly, beyond that there have been various levels of community volunteerism over the years I've been policing. There was a time when community policing was a focus for which you would often see community residents coming in to volunteer and provide support. Now we're moving towards a community engagement model that embraces the same type of participation. There are limitations to the extent to which you can embrace it in that respect as well. There are always the parameters requiring that the police officers do the police work, and they have to do the primary responses. The question is how an auxiliary officer and a civilian who is volunteering can support us in delivering that service.

It helps us in many respects—I would say mostly in our community services or visibility, etc.—but it doesn't actually remove the workload that is there for the front-line officers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, we aren't going to be able to hear from some of the others.

We go back to Madame Michaud.

Welcome here.

She's covering for Madame Doré Lefebvre, who has other things on her mind right now, as you all know.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank each of you for your presentations.

My first questions are for Mr. McFee.

I appreciated your presentation and found your various programs quite interesting. Before I became a member of Parliament, my training was in psychology, originally. Your systemic approach seems to have merit and to be rather effective.

Could you please tell us how you select the various cases that are referred to the Hub intervention team? How are those decisions made, given that the cases come from different elements in the community?

[Dale McFee]

That's a great question. Keep in mind that all of these agencies still work autonomously; they're all still working in their own jobs.

What the hub and the COR are designed for is this: all of those agencies have the ability, when they've exhausted what they've been trying to do in their own ministry or their own agency.... When they have an acute, elevated risk component, that is the benchmark or measurement to share the information. So we're not just throwing names around and thinking that we need to solve everything. When there's an acute or elevated risk, which most often these are, they are the ones that need attention now, because they identify that acute, elevated risk. They haven't been able to do something in their own agency and now they throw a team at it and the resulting conversation is six minutes on average. They get services to those people or individuals and/or families within 24 to 48 hours. That's a game changer and that's how it's done.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

How far can the action taken by partners go? You said it's more for short-term intervention, but you nevertheless figure out a strategy for the different files presented to those teams. How long can the intervention last? Can they turn into situations that require more long-term follow-up? What kind of follow-up are you able to provide with the different partners?

[Dale McFee]

The file's not dropped until the risk is reduced and professionals are comfortable with where it's at.

Let me give you an example. I'll take 45 seconds. A 14-year-old girl comes into the system, comes through education, a kid who was a straight-A student but is now having trouble, falling asleep in class, hardly attending whereas she never used to miss school. They bring the name—yes, the acute or elevated risk—and the police check the records and they find the same individual face-down drunk in a snowbank. She would have frozen to death if some member of the public hadn't found her.

Social services checks their records. They were in that home 13 times in the last three and a half months. Nobody is talking to each other here.

To make a long story short, a phone call is made and a team—a social worker, a police officer, and a mental health worker—go to the house. They did not want education because she felt embarrassed. That's fine. They go in. What can we do to help? They find out. The mum got into a bad domestic violence relationship the night she was found face-down drunk in the snowbank. Mum had a belt around her neck. She didn't think she would see mum again.

That came in. The police pushed out the criminal component. They'll do that, fair enough. This guy had a significant record. He was a really bad person. They removed the threat. Social services came in and did an emergency intervention order and got some short-term funding. Housing came in and changed the lock on the door. Mum was a full-time student taking post-secondary at SIAST. To make a long story short, the last month and a half she had fallen off.

Education reconnects that. That family that was in the system 16 times within a very short period of time has never been in the system since because we got them what they needed to succeed.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That's a great example of the work you do.

Do I still have some time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes. I'll give you 30 seconds. That's because you're new.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

Can the work done by the intervention team or even the centre of responsibility be applied to all street gang-related issues? Could that approach help improve things on that front?

[Dale McFee]

Absolutely.The strength of this is its link to community priorities. A community dictates what its priorities are, the things that are most sought after. What you can get here when you really get into this is that you can now align your CBOs and your service providers. I'll take the region of Prince Albert, where the three top areas they aligned had numerous CBOs and NGOs in those agencies, but not one was working on the three top priorities.

So now you've also created alignment whereby everybody is working in the same direction to get results, and the results are measured. So just think of the efficiencies and the effectiveness in leveraging results once you create alignment with your external service providers.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.