Public Safety Committee on April 16th, 2013

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, if you don't mind.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I listened carefully to your question about the risk you mentioned. During the past few years, costs and efficiency have been on everyone's radar.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Indeed.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I would say the risk is calculated. Whether we're talking about the number of searches or arrests that are necessary or about the number of crimes, that work will not disappear. We don't want to see any crimes committed in our communities or anyone arrested, but the fact remains those things will continue to keep our police officers and public safety agencies busy.

What everyone is talking about this morning is the other aspect of that work—and I can't tell you whether the percentage is 10%, 15% or 20%. It's the part of the job that can be performed in another way, with different resources, by groups or agencies joining forces to work on prevention. Being careful not to create risks by favouring one element or the other is key. Both avenues are vital. They go hand in hand, and it's very important for us to have both. But we have to consider the available options in terms of being efficient and shifting the work load when it can be allocated to other agencies.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

That's great.

I'd like to hear from Mr. McFee now, please.

Could you answer the question.

[Dale McFee]

Sorry to cut in, but did you ask for me to comment on that?

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, Mr. McFee, could you comment on that.

[Dale McFee]

Okay. First, I apologize for not being able to speak French.

What I would say is that what you said is bang on. It's about balance. In my role as president of CACP I gave evidence in support of Bill C-10. I said that we're not going to arrest our way out of our troubles, but we're not going to stop arresting. We can't enter a political debate that does one or the other: we have to do it all at the same time. That's integrity. That's obviously risk. We have to make sure that we're on top of that.

But to free up those resources and do that effectively, let's just look at the call volume of a police service that we studied. Of the calls, 25% were criminal in nature and 5% of those led to criminal charges, which left 75% of all the calls for services being about what we call anti-social behaviour, which if left unchecked we know becomes crime. The reality is that it can't be one or the other, but has to be balanced. We have to effectively work in all those areas at the same time, taking the low-hanging fruit out the system and doing a great job at the back end making sure that we're protecting the integrity and those interests in our country and our provinces that obviously pose major risks to our everyday lives.

Quite frankly, it's not one or the other. We need to do it all. The only way we can do it is to free up this end by taking stuff out of the system, allowing us to do more on this end and to use a cost-effective method to do it more efficiently.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

That's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Hawn, please, for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, do we still have Deputy Federico?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I believe he's still there.

Deputy Chief Federico, do you hear us?

[D/Chief Michael Federico]

I can hear you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, thanks.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Deputy Federico, you talked about the value of early intervention. From a human perspective, that's obvious. Have you done any studies on the cost savings of early intervention? Can you put any empirical data to that?

[D/Chief Michael Federico]

I'd reference and echo Mr. McFee's observations about the cost of incarceration, for example, being four times the cost of paying a police officer to do a job. So we are trying to maintain a balance. If you avoid having to introduce somebody into the criminal justice system, there are a lot of costs that societies avoid. It doesn't necessarily result in a savings to the police department, but all of these accumulated costs are avoided if we can intervene earlier. There's a principle here of cost avoidance in community investments as opposed to direct cost reduction. You're still going to have to invest in the particular case, but that investment may perhaps take the form of a return to school, perhaps a family support intervention to support the family at home, perhaps some addiction counselling or some crisis intervention. They're still going to require an investment, so the community still has to have the capacity to respond to that. But you're not introducing the individual into the high priced, high-cost services that are represented by our courts, our correctional services, and our police services. I'd make that point.

I echo what the two other speakers are saying, that there's a balance to be achieved. The hub offers a great deal of promise, because the case conferencing can examine the individual needs and respond more effectively than trying to do some aggregate response to a community issue like poverty, or homelessness, or marginalization. You're working now with individuals, changing their condition so they don't come back and become repeat offenders or recidivists and a continual draw on the system.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McFee, I can identify with your McDonald's analogy. I just got back from Taiwan and McDonald's is everywhere, but a quarter pounder with cheese is really hard to find.

[A voice]

Oh, oh!

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We talked about the role of the federal government and a little bit about training. Can you expand on your view of the role of the federal government in this whole process and how it can be improved?

[Dale McFee]

I think there are some things you could really look at, some type of legislation in relation to privacy that encourages people to share information when acute, elevated risk exists. We've gone from an age where we're scared to share information—and that's crazy. When safety is in jeopardy, and somebody in your family is a person at acute, elevated risk, we need to do the right thing so that we can sleep at night. That's gone way too far. Obviously, we're trying to address it in this province. We've done our privacy assessments; we're working towards it. That's one area.

I give full marks for ADM Tupper coming out to Prince Albert to talk. My language with him is, “Don't have me chase money pots. Don't tell me I didn't apply to this fund.” We're all in this together. At the end of the day, there's a role for all of us to play as we develop some of these systems. Part of that will be money; part of that is systems. But it should never be the case that it's all on the other. In other words, if you look at anything that we've developed from this point of view in Saskatchewan, it's all affordable and all replicable.

We're not looking to drain a bank account. We're not looking to throw everything at this, saying it's the be-all and end-all. We're looking at how we can take snippets of what we do, use a paradigm shift in thinking, and reinvest some of what we do to deliver a better product. If we keep it at that simple stage, there's no question that we need the federal government involved in relation to this. I think we'll get there. It's been a while, and we've had lots of talks with the NCPC. I've been very encouraged with the recent discussions with [Inaudible--Editor], because I think that's what we're trying to do in essence.

I shouldn't be telling them what their role is. I think it's up to us collectively to build the right response for the clients we're serving.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Really we're talking about breaking down silos, whether they are silos between agencies or silos between levels of government. You did a lot of that in Saskatchewan with respect to sharing of information between the various services: social services, policing, and so on. What were some lessons learned there that you might pass on to your colleagues in other provinces or the federal government?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have 30 seconds.

[Dale McFee]

Respectfully step on toes. It's about leadership and not ownership. We need to get out of ownership and more into leadership, because that's what we all do well. Sometimes you just have to go out and get it done.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Rafferty, please, for five minutes.