Public Safety Committee on April 30th, 2013

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to pursue the issue of funding. The minister announced an extension to funding. For how many years would that be?

[Chief Robert Herman]

The minister announced sustainable funding for five years.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm trying to remember now, was there an increase relative to the funding levels prior, or was it just a straight extension of existing funding?

[Chief Robert Herman]

The last negotiated funding was in 2008. There has been a cash injection into the budgets over two years, which represented about 8%, but that 8% does not meet the actual operational costs of the service. There really hasn't been any increase to the funding since 2010.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Except for that cash injection, which was for what?

[Chief Robert Herman]

It was to help cover some of the costs we had.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

But these were not operational costs, did you say?

[Chief Robert Herman]

We have global budgets. We don't have capital or operational budgets. We just have global budgets.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Is the level for the next five years on an annual basis the same as it has been in the past, except for that two-year injection of cash?

[Chief Robert Herman]

I can't answer that beyond this year, because this year I know that the funding level is based on the same formula. I don't know what it's going to be from a go-forward perspective.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

But this year it is.

Is the money allotted to the different first nations police forces in a way that uses some kind of objective formula? Is it based on population that you serve, or something else? How do they decide which first nations police force gets how much money out of that global budget?

[Chief Robert Herman]

I can't speak to the CTAs. I can tell you about the first nations policing program in Ontario. It's based on a cost per officer, and it's much lower than what my friend from Whitehorse said. He said that somewhere around $200,000 is the cost per officer. It's around $130,000 or $140,000.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay.

Are you stuck in a situation whereby both governments, Ontario and Ottawa, say that first nations policing is very important and that it's your responsibility?

[Chief Robert Herman]

They tend to point fingers,

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

There's a lot of pointing of fingers, and in the meantime you don't get an upgraded radio system. Is that what happens?

[Chief Robert Herman]

It's interesting. I've heard plenty of times from the federal side of it that policing or justice is a provincial responsibility under the Constitution, but I suppose health care is as well, and other services.

At the end of the day, I think there's a fiduciary responsibility for the federal government to be part of the solution. If the finger-pointing goes on, these problems are not going to be fixed.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That's right.

You said something, and Mr. Rafferty alluded to it before, that on December 31, 2013, certain funding will come to an end, or you'll have to lay off some people. Could you repeat that?

[Chief Robert Herman]

It was a police officer recruitment fund and it was a five-year program.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Oh, that, of course, yes.

[Chief Robert Herman]

I lost 80% of my service.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That was 80% of your service.

[Chief Robert Herman]

That's correct.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That's not made up by the province?

[Chief Robert Herman]

No.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Could that be reflected later on in higher crimes rates, perhaps?