Public Safety Committee on June 13th, 2013

[Prof. James R. Coldren]

Thank you, sir. I would respond in two ways.

I tend to agree with you. I think the police leader and the police manager of today have to be quite adept at this approach, this type of analysis you're talking about, and I don't believe they're trained that way. I know when chiefs get to the executive level they get a fair amount of training and education in leadership and dynamic organizational approaches, but in the United States we don't see that being implemented fully across the country when they're working in their agencies. We do argue for this more holistic approach to the work of policing, this more holistic approach to analysis. As I said before, we think that will produce efficiencies.

I want to refer the committee to one study, and if you haven't come across this I'll be happy to provide it as well. It was done in 2010 and came from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. It looked at the rising cost of policing and identified several reasons for a 10-year to 15-year incremental increase in cost of policing.

Chief Levesque is right. One of the primary drivers of the cost of policing has been the increasing expectation that police do more things that are not necessarily directly related to order, maintenance, and public safety, and that's actually true. But I think that kind of begs the question, if you want to introduce new efficiencies into policing, you have to radically rethink what it is we're asking the police to do and how we're asking them to do it. This paper actually makes reference to what I think are several very interesting points in terms of how we get a return on our investment and what produces the greatest efficiencies.

For example, the authors of this paper point out that using technology to introduce efficiency—we call it here a force multiplier—actually tends to introduce incremental marginal efficiencies that are wiped out by the rising inflationary costs. So if you're going to radically introduce efficiencies into policing, you have to completely rethink what the roles of the police officer and the police agency are in society, and what you expect from them.

I don't think—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thank you, Professor Coldren. I'll have to stop you there.

We'll turn back to the government side, and Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for being here.

Chief Levesque, before I get to some questions, I want to ask if you could send that study you did on court costs in terms of police officer time and money and so on, to the committee. I believe you talked about how 82% of police time in the courthouse is wasted. Could you send any data on that to the committee?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, absolutely.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you so much.

We've heard a lot about reaction to crime, but I want to talk a little bit about prevention. As you said, your police force is 315 civilian and police right now. It was 317 before what was clearly identified as temporary funding under the PORF was stopped, as it was predicted to do. That's impacted you by less than 1%.

You have two officers assigned to your aboriginal liaison office. What percentage of crimes are committed by the 25% aboriginal population in Thunder Bay? Do you have numbers on that?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry I don't have those figures.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Would you say it's disproportionate to 25%?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, that's not something I'd want to be guessing about, so unless I had the numbers in front of me, I don't think it would be a good idea to guess.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I understand that. I'm a little surprised, given the high percentage of aboriginal population in Thunder Bay and given the experience we've had across the country—I can only speak for Edmonton and I don't have hard numbers—I know they are disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system. That's a pretty commonly accepted fact across the country.

Would it make sense to assign a couple more from your 222 uniformed police officers to that unit? You said that you'd like to double them. Would that pay some longer-term dividends in terms of reducing the...? You talked about how 50 people accounted for 80% of the intoxication arrests. Do you think that assigning more to that aboriginal liaison unit might pay some dividends down the road?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I believe it would certainly help, if nothing else, in building relationships with the aboriginal community. The liaison officers don't do a lot of enforcement. They are truly liaison officers who do a lot of community work. I would take any funding anybody—the province, the federal government, the municipality—was prepared to give, and increase that unit, if I could. That's not going to happen.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'd suggest to you, from my point of view—obviously, I don't live there and you do—that a little bit of extra effort, on the one hand, in the short term would pay dividends in the long term.

You talked about representation on various councils, and so on, with the social network, housing, mental health, and so on. Other police forces—Prince Albert comes to mind—have used a much more aggressive approach in putting not just police officers, but people involved in housing, mental health, addictions, education, and so on, on the ground, to intervene in those smaller percentages of people or families who are involved in a disproportionate way in the criminal justice system. Would something like that make sense to you?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'm familiar with the Prince Albert model. I would agree that it is something we certainly would consider, and are considering. I can tell you our deputy chief here in Thunder Bay is a member of our local Crime Prevention Council. It is something he will be bringing to the next council meeting.

The reason for that is you have all the key players at the table. It's an easy place to bring it up and see what kind of input you get and see if there's any desire from the other agencies involved.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I would encourage you because from our experience with the committee and in visiting other places, the other agencies—I know I'm again speaking for Edmonton—are desirous of getting involved. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same way in Thunder Bay.

Professor Coldren, you talked about “in reach”. I think that is very important. You obviously have to get buy-in from folks who are out there doing the job. In your experience with that and working with various forces, were there any sort of aha moments, “Holy cow, I get that; it makes sense”?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

There will be time for just a very brief answer.

[Prof. James R. Coldren]

I think that's true. I'll give one example.

In Memphis, Tennessee, they were facing a pretty serious residential burglary problem. They did again what I would call one of these shallow analyses, and they figured out that the police districts with the highest residential burglary rates were the districts where most of the returning offenders from prison were going. It's a very common analysis in the States; it probably happens in Canada as well. They immediately fixed on a collaboration with parole and police to address this burglary problem. They hired a researcher from the University of Memphis who took a more careful look at the issue. What he found was a very strong link between truancy and residential burglary by youth.

In a very short amount of time there was this aha moment that they were going down the entirely wrong path because of their traditional reliance on the data that they normally use to analyze these problems. Once they did a little intelligence work and had some focus groups in the community, and did some collaborative work, they had a completely different understanding of the problem they were facing. They clearly took a very different approach.

Things like that happen quite frequently.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thanks, Professor Coldren.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Michaud, who has the last four minutes.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank our two witnesses for their presentation.

My questions are for Mr. Levesque.

At a committee, it seems that it was highly recommended that you make more of an effort and try to apply different models, including the Prince Albert model. In your opinion, what would constrain you from fully implementing that model?

You already spoke of funding. If there is anything you have not said about that, you could do so now.

In short, what other things are preventing you from applying that model?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'm sure it's not just our organization, but the limitations are the resources to put towards it, and the desire from other agencies. As one of the members suggested, and as you have seen, it is much desired in other communities. As I mentioned, it is something we will be bringing forward as a preventative concept to engage other community organizations to help us.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

A little earlier, in your presentation, you talked about the Thunder Bay Crime Prevention Council, which brings together about thirty organizations in your region. They get together to discuss certain problems. Can you tell us a little more about what they are currently doing?

[Chief John Paul Levesque]

Mr. Chair, the group is the connection with all the agencies that we feel should be at the table. I used to be on the committee myself when I was the deputy chief.

It's that connectivity with the other organizations and discussing the issues we're seeing that are not just police issues, but issues with other social agencies, children's aid societies, and things of that nature. There's some policy work being done. There's work being done with community groups, such as beautifying areas and some crime prevention through.... Ergonomic development is being done. That's the kind of work we're seeing through that council.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, we're out of time for this morning. Our analysts will be in touch with Chief Levesque and Professor Coldren for some follow-up material. I would advise the committee that there may be some delay in distribution, as we presume the American material is available in English only and will have to be translated before it is distributed.

I'd like to thank both witnesses for a very interesting session this morning. We will be in touch with you.

The meeting is adjourned.