Evidence of meeting #27 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prevention.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
On page 6 of the report that has been distributed to you, the author says this:
Given that no SIBs have yet reached the payout stage, it is not yet possible to assess whether these potential benefits will materialize.
I'm not sure if we know yet that these programs are either beneficial—that they actually have the desired outcome—and/or if they'll be sustainable.
Conservative
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witness for appearing.
Somewhere in your remarks, and I'll come back to the topic at hand in a moment, you talked about the lack of agreement on the causes of crime, which I maintain is probably one of the most important issues that we're failing to address.
What work has been done in that area?
Larry and I both come from the farm sector. We certainly know full-well that if you've got a problem, no matter what it is, you're not going to fix it unless you know the cause of it. If we could get at the causes of these issues, we'd probably be doing a lot more than trying to deal with them after the fact.
Do you have anything to express in that area?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
The motto of Mayor Dianne Watts' campaign for crime reduction was to get at the root causes of crime. That was the heart of it. It's one thing to say it, it's another thing to actually understand what that actually means, and in what context and everything else. A lot of it depends on very recent research—new things that we're learning all the time.
Dr. Andrea Curman, in 2012, published her dissertation out of Simon Fraser University, “Crime and Place: A Longitudinal Examination of Street Segment Patterns in Vancouver, BC.”, which showed that high amounts of crime happen only on a very few streets.
It's not even known yet whether those streets actually constitute a neighbourhood. That one piece of information could fundamentally transform what we think in regard to crime, both in theory and practice. That just came out two years ago. Her work is being published with Dr. Martin Andresen at Simon Fraser University, who is one of the most prolific young publishers today.
As for other causes, I may just remind everybody that the United Nations compendium does not talk only about social developmental crime prevention but also about situational crime prevention. There is a whole body of research and literature around situational crime prevention that often gets lost on the wider public, and is only in the domain of police, courts, and corrections.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
It's certainly an area that does need a lot more work. I thank you for your response.
In your remarks as well, you seem to emphasize that we need a statutory framework dealing with crime prevention or whether it's social finance. From my own point of view, I guess I'm asking you specifically, what do you mean in that regard?
My concern with social finance is this. I think it certainly has some potential, but my concern is that if there's a great dependency on social finance, it's going to mean a patchwork quilt of programming across the country.
There will be some areas where investors are willing to invest, and there will be other areas, maybe in the north or some of the smaller provinces, where there will not be that willingness to invest. There could be a mix of programs: the crime prevention programs that are funded federally; the policing, federal, provincial, and municipal; and social finance.
What are your thoughts?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
In terms of the statutory legislation that creates some sense of responsibility, obligation, and transparency, I think it's crucial. I think of all things that moved the United Kingdom, or Britain, if you will, out of their repetitive or stalled crime prevention setting was the Crime and Disorder Act.
There are three specific sections of the Crime and Disorder Act to me that are transformative to the effort.
The first one is section 17,which requires all local area authorities to maintain community safety issues in all areas of their policy—but not to the neglect of their other responsibilities.
Section 5 places a duty on those local area authorities, along with police, health, and other probation committees, to work together to tackle the problems of crime, to put aside jurisdictional issues or maybe silos and other things, and to force them in some ways, according to the law, to work together.
In section 6, partnerships are mandated to produce and publish strategies for these problems. These have to be based on an audit of crime that is done regularly within their community.
To me, the statutory authority is really everything. It also assumes that there would be a financial contribution of substantial degree toward that effort.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Is that the Crime and Disorder Act in England or...? I wonder, Mr. Chair, could our researchers obtain a copy of that for us to preview, if they could?
Are you saying, then, in terms of the statutory framework that the federal government should take some leadership and provide that overall framework? Or is it a cooperative venture? How would you suggest that take place?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
In Britain, Tony Blair took up that effort and made it part of the national strategy. So, yes, I think it would be at the national level.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
There's just one point I wanted to make, Mr. Chair.
You mentioned in passing that you had interviewed offenders. I really think that's a great way to really get some basic opinions on how people ended up offending, and get at the root causes, so to speak, of crime. What did you learn from that experience that could be helpful to us?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Well, I learned a couple of things. One, the age crime curve was drilled into my mind, and that is, that most people who are offenders commit crimes when they're young and they never go on to commit another one.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Okay, fine. Thank you, Mr. Easter. You've gone past your time.
Mr. Rousseau, you have the floor.
Five minutes.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Jenion, thank you for joining us today.
I am assuming you can hear the simultaneous interpretation, correct?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I can hear you.
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Mr. Jenion, what is the danger facing crime prevention programs that are funded and sponsored by the private sector, especially in terms of the tools and parameters that might be used to assess them?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. A complete reliance only on performance indicators....
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Could you elaborate on the impact, the crime rate and other things of that kind?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I think the best way to answer that is to understand that the crime rate may not measure what we think it measures. Specifically, I can recall, and I do have it with me, an article in The Delta, a local newspaper in Surrey, that records a Staff Sergeant Garry Beggs stating that prostitution within Newton rose in one fell swoop rose by over 300%, and that it was not an indication that the Mounties were not doing their job. And he's correct: it wasn't. It's because they had shifted and changed their patrol patterns and some of the focus and emphasis they were putting their efforts into.
Given the dropping number crimes that Canadians report, I do not think that the crime rate would be a great measure to use of successful performance.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
I would like to continue along the same lines.
What could the danger be for small communities and remote regions in particular? Sometimes, social finance from the private sector is not always possible for some types of crimes. What is the danger facing those communities?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
That money that could have gone to them would not; it would be going to these other ventures.
May I add one more statement?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Although the United Nations compendium supports the social development programs, and rightly so, we also want to be cautious that we don't merely engage in social programs for crime reduction purposes alone, and that good governance and an enlightened society should contribute to those things, independent of whether they have a reduction of crime.