Evidence of meeting #27 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prevention.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
In the reference you made to the Horner report, which is a House of Commons committee report from 1993 for those who hadn't figured that out, it talks about a much higher level of spending, and we have that contrasted with the current bureaucracy saying that we can't afford to do that kind of spending. I guess my impression from that Horner report was that it's an investment rather than spending, that if the government put more money into crime prevention, it would actually save money in the long run. Is that the tenor of the Horner report?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Yes, I would say that's correct. I think that it is the spirit of the report. It moves things beyond just lip service or a window dressing, and it's toward sustainability. It's hard to disagree with the word “prevention”. Prevention is a wonderful word; everybody wants to prevent crime. I don't think you could find people from anywhere who would not want to prevent crime from happening, but the issue is, how do we sustain that effort? Unless it's of a massive undertaking, I don't think we can assume that we'll have success.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Fine, thank you very much. Time is up.
Now Mr. Maguire, please, for five minutes.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Jenion, for your presentation. It leads me to a few questions in regard to the whole area that you've looked at in the criminology department at Kwantlen Polytechnic University, for sure.
Can you just give us an update perhaps on some of the studies and documents that you've put forward in this area? I was looking for some of those and I couldn't find too much in regard to published areas around social finance tools in crime prevention. I was just curious, can you share some of your academic writings with us?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Sure, I'd love to.
I think what I could start with is my dissertation, which specifically examined not only the global context of crime prevention efforts but domestic efforts as well, right down to the municipal crime reduction plan that the City of Surrey has done.
My senior supervisor was Dr. Paul Brantingham, the founder of environmental criminology, and my external supervisor was Mr. Marcus Felson, the founder of routine activities theory and opportunities theory. Outside of that, I continue to teach crime prevention at Kwantlen Polytechnic University and I'm approaching my 10th year doing that. I have numerous publications talking about the crime rate in the Canadian Journal of Criminology and Criminal Justice, as well as some other journals that are in my bio on the web page that you can read.
Even more importantly, I've been involved in interviewing offenders, both in incarceration settings with Burnaby youth custody services centre, project 6116, which is the national young offender study on auto theft, and a project within the Forensic Psychiatric Centre under the direction of Dr. Simon Verdun-Jones. So that would be some of my experience.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
I'm looking more for the social finance tools, some of those areas that we could look at. First of all, you mentioned the British model. Could you compare that to the New York model? Do you think there is any success in that New York model?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I would have to go back and take a look at that to make an accurate comparison now.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
As well, in your opinion, if governments were to move toward a more self-sustaining program funded by the private sector through the social finance models, what types of accountability mechanisms would be required to make those successful?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
For sure there would have to be independent oversight outside the private partnership. In terms of accountability, it should go beyond, as I stated earlier, performance indicators alone.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
What types of measures would you use for targets with regard to these types of initiatives? How would you judge them?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I'll say that the one measure I wouldn't use is the crime rate. One of the things that I hear quite often is that Canada's crime rate is going down, and all of that. To be clear on that, it's the reported rate of crime. We know that.
We also know that something else is going down. In 2004, 34% of Canadians reported crime to police, according to the GSS, the general social survey victimization cycle component. In 2009 that number had dropped to 31% of Canadians reporting crime. How low does that number have to go before we question even the official reported rates of crime that are out there?
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Would a better way to monitor the crimes that we have be based on recidivism rates? Can you comment on that?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
That could be a measure, yes.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
If you were looking at that and looking at some of the social programs that are out there today, whether it's social impact bonds or other programs, what sort of involvement would you have from intermediaries in that whole process?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I'd have to spend a little bit more time thinking about that in depth.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Do you think they would have a role in monitoring the ongoing programming at all?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
On the processes of implementation of the social finance models, if you were looking at how to proceed with that, how would you go about setting up that up? We talked about a number of mechanisms for social financing to reduce crime rates. What would be the preferred route to go, in your mind?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
To establish and be clear on whose responsibility the program was, and who could be held accountable for that program, and how widely the results and dissemination of information about that program could be distributed....
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Would the key elements to its success be in that whole information process regarding how to implement the social finance model to start with, and how to implement it?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I'm not sure. I would have to say that given my background, I have a very situational approach to addressing crime issues and social ills. We cannot assume that every context is the same. I would not apply a recipe-type of approach to the various urban and rural areas around Canada.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
So you would see differences across different parts of Canada.
I wonder what contractual arrangements would be needed to provide a successful social finance model and what set of rules are the contractual arrangements based on. What would you see put in place there for some kind of cohesiveness around it?
Professor, Faculty, Criminology Department, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, As an Individual
I'd have to give that some more thought, sir.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
One of the witnesses at committee described the grant and contribution process as essentially 100% loss with the hope of an outcome. So I wonder if you could compare that to a social impact bond model where there is sustainable investment and an expectation of an outcome from a societal perspective. From the taxpayers' perspective, would you not agree that it's best to expect tax dollars to create outcomes and actually prevent crime?