Public Safety Committee on Nov. 5th, 2013

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

Here is my other concern. You said that police officers and police forces are increasingly dealing with unconventional crimes committed by the homeless or by the mentally ill, as well as more and more sophisticated crimes like human trafficking, youth prostitution and cyberbullying. So it is clear that updating the training given to police officers and police forces is all the more important in our modern world.

How can we square that with a new approach to the economics of policing?

[Mark Potter]

I think you're right. The police are dealing with a tremendous range of crimes and new crimes that are emerging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We've just lost translation for a second. Please give us a moment.

It is fine; you can continue.

[Mark Potter]

You don't have to look too far. I think in the Globe and Mail today there's a report from Europe where a non-governmental organization there was essentially using a technique of putting information about child sexual exploitation on line and seeing how many individuals from around the world were accessing that information. They were absolutely startling numbers, the number of people who were going on to that website for the purpose of child sexual exploitation. They were able to link that to individuals in many places, including Canada.

The resources not only...and this is just an NGO, but the police themselves have units that are tracking this sort of behaviour, and it's very complex, very time consuming, requiring technical skills that are often tremendously difficult to develop and then maintain. These are emerging areas that are very important to Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Potter and Mr. Rousseau.

Mr. Weston, please.

[Rodney Weston, Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Potter, welcome. I'm one of the new members on the committee, and I certainly look forward to playing an active role in the committee. This study is very interesting.

I have a question around the shared forward agenda that you mentioned in your comments today. My question is with respect to what's involved in the agenda. You talk about how it's being developed through collaboration with governments and police associations and whatnot. I guess where I'm going with this is that we all understand that police are being asked to do much more than they were 30 years ago. There are new dimensions in society now that they didn't have to deal with back in those days, 25 to 30 years ago—whether it's Internet crimes or some of the mental health issues you talked about. The police can be spending many hours at hospitals dealing with individuals who have mental health issues.

I hear a lot of people talking about the time police are spending on administrative duties and the time they are spending in courts. Those are issues police had in the past as well. Courtroom time was always an issue for police, to ensure prosecutions were completed. Administrative issues were always there because you want to make sure every detail is recorded for the prosecution.

However, with the shared forward agenda and the talk of collaboration, my mind went to the collaborative care model of health care. When health care providers are dealing with something that is outside of their normal areas of expertise, it's triaged and moved to another area.

Is there any thought given under the shared forward agenda to...I don't want to use the collaborative health care model or a triage model, but to some sort of model like that? If police are dealing with a mental health issue that's outside of the policing realm per se...there are not criminal charges that would be followed up on in that nature. Is there any thought to being able to move this to somebody who is...I don't want to say better suited, but better trained to deal with those issues?

[Mark Potter]

I think there has been a lot of progress in this area, but it's mixed. So in dealing with individuals with mental health issues, it's often a two-pronged approach. You've heard from certain police chiefs in this regard. They will go on patrol with a public health nurse. You'll have a police officer and a public health nurse in the car responding to incidents, to allow for the proper engagement with individuals with mental health issues. So there are particular things like that, which frankly, in some police services, have been around for 30 years. Other police services are only just starting to do it. That's why I said there's a bit of a mixed bag.

There's the training that is given to police officers to make them aware of the signs and symptoms of mental health issues, which has grown pretty significantly, both in the basic training and in the refresher training that police get. There are other things that have been happening. For example, in the Yukon, as a result of a particular incident there, they've done a review and made some reforms to their policing system and how they engage with various partners, including mental health. One of them is when you're bringing in an individual who's displaying signs of mental health issues, how do you get them quickly into the health care system?

What has often happened in most jurisdictions is the police will take such an individual to the emergency ward, and because the individual may have the potential for violence, the police are required to remain in the emergency ward. That's the Sudbury example. I was actually on a ride along with RCMP in Whitehorse not too long ago where this exact situation happened, where an individual had to go to the emergency department, and there were five police officers standing around the bed for two hours. This was because of other priorities, and the doctors didn't have a chance to deal with this individual and give them the help they needed.

So what you have—and this is starting to emerge now in the Yukon and elsewhere—are MOUs in place with the health care system that say when we're bringing in certain types of individuals, please let us go to a particular part of the hospital where there are people trained to assess these individuals, determine what condition they're in, and how they can best be helped. The police are then better able to hand them off to a secure, helpful environment for the individual without the police—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Potter. I appreciate that.

M. Pilon, s'il vous plaît.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Potter.

In your presentation, you say: “The main principles behind the evolving strategy are to cooperate collectively in those areas where it makes sense to do so…and to adopt a comprehensive and holistic approach to public safety”.

In your opinion, where does it make sense to do so?

Here is the second part of my question. In my riding, I have 39 cultural communities. Given that each community is different, do you think that there can be a comprehensive and global approach in an environment like that?

[Mark Potter]

I think we're trying to be very sensitive in developing the strategy to be respectful of the operational decisions particular police services need to make. They need to make those decisions in consultation with their residents. This isn't a matter certainly for the federal government or even for provincial and municipal governments to necessarily dictate. This is something the police, who work very intimately with their communities and know their communities and work with community residents, community groups, community activists, understand and know how best to serve that community. So through the strategy we're operating at a fairly high level in terms of the kinds of actions and collaboration we foresee. Many of these actions are facilitative. They're meant to provide the tools, the information, and the knowledge that allows police services to adapt them and apply them as they see fit.

This isn't a one-size-fits-all strategy. This is giving the tools, the information, to allow particular governments, particular police services, in response to their residents' needs, the right kind of service as efficiently as possible. Through the strategy we are not trying to dictate particular approaches. We're trying to keep this at a fairly high level that will allow that essential operational independence to continue to exist for police services. They can draw on this information as they see fit.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I am new to the committee too. Could you tell me if the province of Québec and the Sûreté du Québec are taking part in the work that is going on?

[Mark Potter]

Absolutely.

The agreement and the direction that has been provided by FPT ministers is all ministers, including the ministers of public safety and justice from the Province of Quebec. They were part of that consensus in asking us to hold the summit, develop the index of policing initiatives, and ultimately to bring forward a shared forward agenda or strategy for policing.

I don't want to prejudge what will ultimately be decided by ministers, but I think there's been a tremendous level of collaboration among all governments in dealing with this issue. I think part of that success is the nature of the approach we're taking, which is to be respectful of jurisdictional responsibilities and not develop this in a way that could be perceived or construed as the federal government imposing particular solutions on particular jurisdictions. We've had a very good level of cooperation with all the provinces, including Quebec.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Some of the things you mentioned in your presentation were websites and targeted learning activities. Do they help to bring the crime rate down? In general, do these new technologies give good results?

[Mark Potter]

I think that's a broad question, and you'd have to look at particular initiatives, particular jurisdictions. Certainly, overall, we're seeing a decline in the reported crime rate right across Canada. That's not necessarily the case in every single jurisdiction and for every single crime. You're seeing some crime spikes, particularly in the west and in the north, in particular areas that are of concern.

In terms of crime prevention models, part of the challenge is that we don't necessarily know what's working and how effectively it's working. This is the research challenge, and ultimately the information-sharing challenge. When there are programs that appear to be generating positive results, do we have the data, do we have the independent evaluation of those to confirm that, yes, that's the right kind of approach? Then, even if you do have the right kind of approach, you don't necessarily simply transfer that directly to some other jurisdiction. You have to take into account the different communities you're dealing with and ensure that you align that approach appropriately with wherever else you may want to apply it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

That's it. Thank you.

Colleagues, we have now finished our round of questioning.

At this time, I would like to thank you, Mr. Potter, not just for today but also for the substantive information you've provided to this committee over the number of times you've been here. It's deeply appreciated. On behalf of all the committee, thank you very much.

I'd like to thank my colleagues from all sides of the House for their interventions and their comments today.

We will have a motion for adjournment very shortly, I would expect, but before we do that, I might serve notice to the committee that at our Thursday meeting, the chair has an intention to reserve the last few minutes for future business. I just bring that to your attention so that you can possibly come prepared for that, should the committee decide that's equitable, at that time.

I'm open for a motion. It is moved by Mr. Norlock and seconded by Mr. Garrison.

We are adjourned to the call of the chair.