Public Safety Committee on Nov. 19th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much for your personal testimony, Ms. Peterson.

With the time extensions from the motion put forward, I think we will want to go back to our routine timeframe now. We will go to our seven-minute and five-minute periods. We will start off with Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you for attending today.

Ms. Peterson, first of all, I'd like to begin with an apology from all politicians. Unfortunately this place in Ottawa moves far too slowly. I know after several decades of pushing you're finally seeing the results that you deserve. It's only the love of a parent, and in this case the love of a mother, that has moved us, and especially Minister Flaherty, the late Jim Flaherty.

[Judy Peterson]

Yes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I know you were present at the last budget speech when the funding that will allow this to happen took place. So that's the apology.

I thank you as a parent to another parent for being so tenacious. There aren't many Canadians who would have stuck by their child and the need to know. Most of us would just be resigned to sitting back and wishing that somebody else would do it, so this is a thank you to you for doing this. This may not have occurred had you not been so tenacious, and for that I thank you.

[Judy Peterson]

Thank you.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I was particularly interested when you mentioned the Missing Children Society and your interaction with them. I wonder if you could tell us about some other people who have gone through what you've gone through. You put a face to the very legislation that we're dealing with. I wonder if you could talk about your interaction with other parents and perhaps other agencies that are supporting you through this endeavour and giving us a little, and sometimes not so little, nudge towards doing what we're doing.

[Judy Peterson]

I first got involved with the Missing Children Society of Canada when I saw a poster. It was early in the investigation and that week I sat at my computer and typed, trying to format a missing poster, trying to pick a picture, and trying to find a colour printer. I had gone around the town with my roll of Scotch tape and my stack of posters tearfully putting up posters. The next week when I saw one of a missing child from the Missing Children Society, I contacted them and they flew out an investigator who did most of the interviews with Lindsey's friends.

I've been in contact with them, probably weekly, for the last 21 years and they have been an enormous support. I've worked with them on media events and they sort of walked me through how to speak to the media and how to generate a media event.

I haven't had a lot of contact with other families of missing children. Missing Children has contacted me probably five or six times, specifically to ask, “Would you speak to this mother? She seems to be struggling and it might help her to speak with you.” I have spoken to them and I've had lots of e-mails from people across the country saying, “Thank you”, and “I'm sending some letters myself.” People in Manitoba have done thousands of petitions, have stood at malls, all of those people have been wonderful.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

If you had one message you could send to legislators and folks here in Ottawa, the elected officials especially, what would that message be when we deal with issues such as missing persons and the use of data banks, such as DNA data banks? Is there a message you'd like to send us that might get us to be a little more proactive?

[Judy Peterson]

I feel we are so close. I feel that everybody, myself included, and some of the Conservative caucus, and I met with Wayne Easter when he was the solicitor general back in 2003.... I know it's not a partisan issue and I hope that the people who are working on this legislation and voting for this legislation, if I can say frankly, have the guts to put this through finally.

It was supposed to go through in 2000 and my understanding is that they got a little nervous and pulled out the missing persons DNA data bank, thinking they would put it in later. Well, it will be 15 years later, so now is the time to actually.... I believe it's set up very well and is very well thought out. I'm very pleased with the way the databases are linked. I work with databases myself, so I know full well how they can be separated and how they will work. I'm very pleased and I hope this goes through finally. I'm terrified that something will go wrong because I'm so hopeful and I'm so excited. I would say, please have the guts to get this through.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Ms. O'Sullivan, I wonder if you've had similar contacts with the Missing Children Society of Canada. Utilizing that, plus your police experience, can you put the pieces together and let us know—you've already told us how important this is to your office—how important this will be not only to families of victims, but also to police officers?

[Sue O'Sullivan]

Again I'll speak on behalf of victims. I think Judy has quite eloquently talked about how important it is that we implement this. The same as she has, I've had opportunities to speak to the RCMP in terms of the implementation of this bill.

I would encourage people to make sure that this goes through. As it is implemented, however—and these are some of the messages I have, and I've been reassured that these have been thought of in terms of the implementation—Judy obviously has a tremendous amount of experience, but for families who haven't and don't know, make sure that they're going to have clear information on how their DNA will be used.

The other thing is that there is a voluntariness here. You've heard me say before committee that victims need choices and options. In order to be able to make those choices, they need the right information. I've been reassured that those processes are in place, or will be put in place.

I would also encourage that as it's rolled out for implementation the provinces and territories have the resources to be able to ensure that when the victim picks up the phone.... We know that this is a last tool. We know that most missing persons cases are resolved through investigation. This was the missing piece, the last piece, that we should have an ability to search these systems on a national level to make sure there is any chance for these families, even that some families are able to find out if their loved ones are in those found human remains, as Judy and many other victims from whom we've heard have been fighting for, for many years.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock, and thank you, Ms. O'Sullivan.

Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'll be sharing my time with Madam Doré Lefebvre.

Of course, I want to thank Ms. O'Sullivan for being here again, but in particular I want to thank Judy Peterson. You're truly inspirational in the effort you've put into this. I think all of us around the table want to assure you that we'll make sure nothing goes wrong, but it's Parliament and we can't always control things as of today.

I know something of what you go through, because Crystal and Bruce Dunahee are constituents of mine whose son, Michael, disappeared at the age of four in 1991.

[Judy Peterson]

That's the poster I saw, yes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Each year they've organized a run to raise funds for Child Find. Crystal Dunahee served as president of Child Find. The remarks you've made today remind me of what they've always said, that you have to keep the hope alive, but eventually you have to accept that knowing the truth is better than not knowing.

I wonder if you would say a bit more about that, because I think that's the difficult part of this for most of the families who have missing members.

[Judy Peterson]

People will often say to me that I need closure. What I've learned by meeting people whose children have died—maybe they've been murdered or they've died of cancer or whatever, and we've been in groups together—is that there is no closure. They know what's happened to their child, and they have the same anguish that I have. I think that people who use the word “closure” have never lost a child. It's not closure.

For me, when I hear on the news about the finding of human remains, or that somebody killed a young girl, it opens up the wound every time, and I wonder. Maybe I'll be phoning the police or doing research or something. It's that the wound keeps getting ripped open all the time.

I would really like to know what happened to her. I feel as if she's out there waiting for me to find her, I really do. It makes no sense, but I feel that.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In your presentation you addressed a couple of the concerns that people have raised about the data bank, but I wonder if you feel that most victims' families will have any reluctance at all to enter DNA in the data bank. My impression is that most of them, if they were given the right information, would be willing to have such a tool.

[Judy Peterson]

I think they'll be lined up, once they understand. As Sue said, they need clear instructions or some sort of diagram that lays this out. I know if I start speaking about it, people will say that they don't understand. They need to understand how a database works. For example, you could tell them that if you search on the Internet for somebody who doesn't have a Facebook page, you're not going to find anything, that sort of thing, to give them clear and simple parameters of how it's going to be used.

People think that maybe they're going to get cloned or something like that, but it's just a number that's being stored. If you make that very clear, I think they'll be more than happy.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you once again.

I'll turn the rest of my time over to Madam Doré Lefebvre.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Ms. Doré Lefebvre, you have four minutes.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank Ms. O'Sullivan and Ms. Peterson for joining us today.

This is really interesting, and we are fortunate to have you with us. I want to thank you for sharing your story with us.

I have some more technical questions about the National DNA Data Bank. I don't know whether Ms. O'Sullivan will be able to answer them, but I will still put my questions to her.

I saw that the National DNA Data Bank contained a voluntary donors index. I am not necessarily familiar with all the details, but I know that, according to the RCMP, this would mainly be used to clear certain individuals during an investigation.

What do you think about the voluntary donors index? What does that tool mean for victims?

[Sue O'Sullivan]

That is really a question for the RCMP—

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I know.

[Sue O'Sullivan]

—but my understanding, and this could be a great follow-up question for the RCMP, is simply that you may find different people in their different roles who attend at many scenes, for example, forensic identification officers, paramedics, and they could....

I think there are RCMP behind me. That's my understanding of it, but I would certainly refer that question to the RCMP for a response.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That part is voluntary, but parents could also provide a DNA sample.

I am not sure I understand what victims of crime think about this. Are parents in favour of this measure being practically mandatory?