Public Safety Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Order, please. If the media wish to scrum, they can do it after the meeting.

Welcome to meeting number 43 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today, we are doing supplementary estimates (B), so I will read the order as presented.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have a study of the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (B) for 2014-15: votes 1b and 5b under Canada Border Services Agency; vote 1b under Canadian Security Intelligence Service; vote 1b under Correctional Service of Canada; vote 1b under Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness; votes 1b, 5b and 10b under Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and vote 1b under Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee.

Appearing today before us as witnesses, for the first hour we have the Honourable Steven Blaney, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Accompanying him now and for the second hour, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have François Guimont, deputy minister.

From Canada Border Services Agency, we have Luc Portelance, president; from Correctional Service of Canada, we have Don Head, commissioner; from Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Michel Coulombe, director; from the Parole Board of Canada, we have Harvey Cenaiko, chairperson; from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Deputy Commissioner Mike Cabana, deputy commissioner of federal policing.

Welcome to all of our witnesses. Thank you very kindly for coming here today for this study. We will proceed with an opening statement, up to 10 minutes, should there be one, and after that we will go directly to questions from our members.

Minister, do you have an opening statement?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to thank the committee members who ensured that Bill C-44, which aims to protect Canada, can return to the House of Commons for third reading and, therefore, be sent later to the Senate, obtain royal assent and become law in Canada.

I am pleased to be here with you today. As you can see, I have with me—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

On a point of order, Mr. Easter....

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

You'll know what the point of order is, Mr. Chair. It's the third time I've made this point of order.

The minister has all the resources of the department. He speaks from written notes every time. It is just absolutely unacceptable that.... It always was the practice that ministers brought their written statements with them. We've gotten away from that.

The minister's written statement should be before us, so we can go through it as he goes through it, so we hear the exact words he's saying. I'm just issuing a complaint again that this minister comes before this committee with all the department and all the resources he has with him and is not prepared to give us a brief.

We have witnesses, Mr. Chair, from volunteer organizations. We expect them to have a written brief, in both official languages, so I see no reason why a minister does not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

I recognize your point, Mr. Easter, you've raised it before.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The hon. member is in the habit of raising this point. As you can see, I am currently speaking without my notes. So it would be difficult to provide them in both official languages, but I do intend to continue making a presentation.

Today, we are here to discuss supplementary estimates (B).

I may consult my notes, but I will let you make your decision on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Ms. Ablonczy.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Chair, I would just comment that my friend, Mr. Easter, has been here for some time, but not as long as I have been here. I sat where he sat for many years—13 to be exact—and had many Liberal ministers appear, and I can tell you that very often, if not most often, I never saw a written document of their remarks.

Mr. Easter, getting on your high horse is a little bit out of line.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Let's stop the dialogue now. I do appreciate the comments from both sides.

We have a number of very experienced and relative witnesses, so we will go directly to Minister Blaney for his statement.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'm sorry for this unintentional loss of time.

I am always impressed when I appear before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, especially when I am surrounded by officials from agencies responsible for the protection and security of Canadians.

I am accompanied today by Harvey Cenaiko, from the Parole Board of Canada; Michel Coulombe, from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service; Mike Cabana, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; Don Head, from the Correctional Service of Canada; Luc Portelance, from the Canada Border Services Agency; and François Guimont, who is the Deputy Minister of Public Safety Canada.

I would like to tell the members of the committee that these people work very hard, particularly when we were called to respond to the recent terrorist attack. We were in the House a few minutes ago, and I had the chance to meet the person who administered first aid to Warrant Officer Nathan Cirillo at the National War Memorial. We are currently preparing a proper and balanced response to this growing terrorist threat. Obviously, we are not going to overreact, but we are not going to stand idly by in the face of this threat, either.

Furthermore, I would like to publicly thank the heads of the agencies that help us to adapt. They have already taken concrete action to protect Canadians.

We are here today to make budgetary adjustments that will allow these important individuals to continue to ensure our protection. As you know, our department was created in response to the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. Even now, I note that the priority for national security is fighting terrorism.

That said, we must not in any way neglect the other important aspects of public safety, which is why I am here this afternoon.

As you know, we have implemented many initiatives to move forward our government's ambitious public safety program. This involves cracking down on crime, improving the rights of victims and strengthening our national security. For example, I recently announced the coming into force of the Safer Witnesses Act, which will increase the effectiveness of the federal government's witness protection program for the individuals it protects, while meeting the needs of law enforcement agencies.

Furthermore, we just sent Bill C-32, An Act to enact the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights and to amend certain Acts, back to the House for debate at report stage. This fundamental bill will change the way we handle justice in Canada and will put victims at the heart of our justice system.

I also want to thank the committee for its work on division 17 of Bill C-43, which amends the DNA Identification Act to create Lindsey's law. This important measure will create a DNA-based missing persons index to help provide closure to the families of missing persons.

I understand that Judy Peterson made a very emotional presentation to the committee. I would like to thank you all for your support on this important legislation that she has advocated for on behalf of her daughter.

Many of you may remember that November 16 was the sad anniversary of the disappearance of Julie Surprenant, in Terrebonne. Her sister, Andréanne, wanted to pay tribute to her on that occasion. It was a moving experience. It allowed us to remind the victims and loved ones of the families of missing or murdered individuals of the implementation of this act, which will help them to get through this type of situation and to find some comfort.

On other fronts, I have introduced measures to provide a simple and safe firearms licensing regime with Bill C-42, the common sense firearms licensing act. This bill was thoroughly debated one week ago. I look forward to this bill being referred to this committee for study in the very near future.

Just last week, I appeared before you regarding Bill C-44, the protection of Canada from terrorists act. I know the committee has completed its study, and has returned the bill to the House without amendments. As I said earlier, recent terrorist attacks are a reminder that the terrorist organization ISIL is a very real threat to Canadians. It is the reason we are working very determinedly to strengthen the tools available to the police and intelligence community in the areas of surveillance, detention, and arrest. The protection of Canada from terrorists act is just the first step in our efforts to do that.

My department and its agencies continue to give priority to efforts to fight terrorism and violent extremism, which includes working with our international allies.

Mr. Chair, I could speak more about the measures that we are implementing, but I would now like to move on to the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2014-15. Essentially, these are adjustments to the budget envelope that we were allocated and some modifications that need to be made to properly reflect the actual accounting and current expenses.

These estimates demonstrate our ongoing commitment to keeping Canadians safe from those who wish to harm them without creating billion-dollar boondoggles.

Allow me to provide some highlights of what I mean.

As the committee members can see, the Supplementary Estimates (B), 2014-15, aim to transfer $3.3 million from the Canada Border Services Agency to the RCMP to build a joint use firing range in British Columbia. It also aims to obtain a transfer of $5.2 million from the Correctional Service of Canada to the RCMP to support the renovations of C block at the RCMP training academy for correctional officer training.

These are prime examples of how we are using taxpayers' money. This way of operating is more effective. We are achieving this by grouping resources, while creating stronger ties within the department.

In addition, the estimates seek $5.2 million for CSIS in support of national security initiatives. I would also like to highlight two key items related to the RCMP. First, on November 28—as of Monday—the Enhancing Royal Canadian Mounted Police Accountability Act came into force, bringing in a new era of modernization and accountability for the RCMP. In order to implement that act, these supplementary estimates provide for $7.9 million to the RCMP to implement new processes relating to grievances and public complaints.

Additionally, there is $710,000 to the RCMP External Review Committee to maintain the committee's existing operations. This entails the review of certain grievances and appeals of decisions and disciplinary and other labour relations matters involving members of the force. This is a very important accomplishment, Mr. Chair. We've been working on that for years. In less than two years, the RCMP has been able to implement this major shift. The deputy commissioner can expand on this later on, but this is certainly a great accomplishment. As you know, we now have beefed up—if you allow me this expression—the oversight of the RCMP.

Second, the estimates seek to transfer $41.9 million to the RCMP for policing services provided pursuant to the first nations policing program. This funding will further support policing services that are professional, dedicated, and responsive to the first nation and Inuit communities they serve.

In addition, $3.7 million is set aside for the national public safety campaign for the next phase in the fight against bullying, called “Get Cyber Safe”. I must tell you that we have had very interesting results in terms of market penetration and our ability to reach out to young people.

We are very proud of the success of this campaign, which is having a significant impact across the country. More than a million people have visited the “Get Cyber Safe” website, and there have been different initiatives in that respect. Of course, I encourage committee members to pass on these constructive messages on the importance of having healthy practices when visiting social media sites and using information technology or any electronic device.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, it is clear that our Conservative government is taking strong action to keep Canadians safe. We are ensuring that victims are at the heart of the justice system and ensuring that child sexual predators face serious consequences. We are making our firearms laws safe and sensible, and we are making sure that our law enforcement and national security organizations have the tools they need to do their jobs.

The one threat that seems to run through all of these initiatives is that they have been delayed, obstructed, or sometimes opposed outright. But we are prevailing, Mr. Chair, and I am proud to say that we intend to stay the course. We have the protection of Canada act coming back into the House of Commons, and we intend to come in the near future with additional legislation so that we can tackle this evolving terrorist threat.

With that in mind, Mr. Chair, I would be more than happy to respond to questions from the members of this important committee.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now go to our first round of questioning.

We will start with Mr. Carmichael, for seven minutes, please.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Blaney and your colleagues, for joining us today as witnesses.

Minister Blaney, out of respect, we have received some disturbing news today. I wonder if you could perhaps give the committee a bit of an update on the reported shooting of an RCMP constable in Kamloops.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank the member for the question.

I was informed this morning that a front-line police officer from the RCMP in British Columbia was wounded. This happened while two RCMP members were performing a vehicle stop in Kamloops, British Columbia, at 2:45 this morning as part of an ongoing operation investigating organized crime. One member was shot. The RCMP members returned fire, but the suspect fled the scene and was later apprehended.

I just got confirmation from Mike Cabana that he's undergoing surgery, but at this point in time his condition is stable and we certainly hope

…that he will recover from his injuries as quickly as possible.

Maybe I can turn to Mike Cabana.

[Deputy Commissioner Mike Cabana, Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Minister. Actually, I don't have much, because I've been tied up in meetings. The last information I was provided was that he was seriously wounded and was undergoing surgery, but his life was not in danger.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

As one committee member I certainly don't want to overstep my bounds here, but our thoughts and prayers are certainly with him and his family for his full recovery.

They should know he's in our thoughts.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I think it reminds us of the dangers to our front-line officers, and it certainly reminds us that they have to remain prudent. To this point in time I have heard that he was seriously wounded, that he's undergoing surgery, and that his family is close to him. So we certainly are sending them our best wishes.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate the update.

Minister, as you know, most of the members at this table today were either in this room or across the hall while a terrorist shot and killed an unarmed soldier, Corporal Cirillo, and stormed the building with an illegally acquired firearm. I wonder if you could comment on the state of security on the Hill at this time, the changes following those tragic events of October 22, and whether there will be more changes coming.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you for your question.

As you know, the security of Parliament is under the supervision of the Speaker of the House and the Speaker of the Senate. I was pleased to learn that they recently decided to merge their two services.

Wherever we are moving forward in terms of security there are three guiding principles that have to guide us and, I would suggest, to guide the Speakers in their moving forward and our willingness to fully support them. As you know, for the security of the precinct, this role is played by the RCMP. It is important that we have a unified command, so that whenever something happens there is a flow of information. This is the very first important principle, that we have a unified command.

The second important aspect of this strategy is that we have a leadership that is fully aware of the full capability and the capacity of security. This is why there has been a very productive discussion with the Speaker. We already have seen a major improvement on the Hill.

At this point in time I must stress that the threat that was considered was mostly a car and vehicle threat. Now we need to consider that pedestrians could also be considered as a potential threat. That's why there has already been an improvement and an adjustment to the security.

So a unified command and interoperability among the different forces.... It does not really matter what colour the uniform is. What matters is that these individuals are all working together under the same direction and applying the safety rules and securing the access to this very important place. This is the House of the people. We understand that and this certainly has to be considered, but also in the meantime people have to be protected, whether it's people inside or outside Parliament. This is how we are moving forward.

I must tell you, as you can tell there have been major improvements and we will support the two Speakers in their willingness to move forward and increase the security of the Hill, both for visitors and those who work here and for parliamentarians as well, who obviously have a privileged access to this place.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I know your comments are important to Canadians who are watching today from coast to coast to coast. That information is very relevant and very important to them.

Minister, I would like to speak with you briefly about the supplementary estimates (B), and on the Correctional Service of Canada specifically. As our government moved to creating safer streets and communities and we talked about keeping victims safe, there was tremendous noise and comment from our opposition that putting criminals in jail would create a prison system that would be bursting at the seams.

I wonder if you could comment on the supplementary estimates (B). As I look at the information that I have before me, it looks like the Correctional Service of Canada is certainly containing their spending, which would indicate that in fact we're not seeing that happening in our prison system, the prisons bursting at the seams, but rather that the prison population may, and I look for your direction on this, be remaining steady. I wonder if you could comment on that, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Just briefly, please....

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Very briefly, the population of inmates is decreasing or is very stable. Commissioner Head can comment on that, but in terms of the apocalyptic projections that were made that our tough-on-crime policies would have an impact, in fact they are actually having an impact. It is that we are keeping criminals behind bars and we have stopped the revolving doors that made criminals repeat crimes outside. We are keeping them behind bars.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Carmichael.

Now, Mr. Garrison, you have seven minutes, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and the officials for being here today.

The minister said several times both in public statements and statements in the House that the budget for Public Safety is larger than it was in 2006, but in fact we know that in the 2012 budget the minister planned cuts of about 10% or $688 million from Public Safety. We also see the public accounts for 2013-14 show that his department and its various agencies lapsed $572 million in spending. So that appears to mean that we're about somewhere around 18% or 19% below the spending in 2012.

I wonder how the minister squares a 19% reduction with his statement today that he has to make sure that Public Safety has the tools they need to do their jobs, because surely that includes the resources they need.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your very interesting question, and I must tell you that I am very proud to be part of a government that takes very seriously the money that comes from taxpayers.

I must tell you that under the leadership of my predecessors we were absolutely able to accomplish an increase in providing more services to Canadians while indeed cutting red tape. That's exactly what took place in this department. Let me give you the example of the Canada Border Services Agency, which has seen the number of front-line officers increase by 26%. Have we shaved our budgets so we're cutting red tape and bureaucratic procedures? Absolutely. Have we increased our people on the street, ensuring that our streets are safer? Absolutely.

We're very proud to have done this. I'm very proud of the way we have handled the public funds. This is why we can say today that we have increased our budget for the RCMP by one third and we have increased the budget of CSIS, which is our security and intelligence, by one third, while in the meantime increasing service to the population.

I think Canadians are very proud now that they can benefit from those savings, and that families will have more money in their pockets, while in the meantime we are increasing the safety of the country.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Minister, to look specifically at CSIS, which you've raised, your plan was to cut $24.5 million, and your government lapsed another $18.2 million, so what we have here is about $43 million in reductions since 2012. In these supplementary estimates you tell me that you're asking for $5.2 million more for CSIS for national security measures, so it seems to me that you must have gone too far if you have to come back and ask for $5.2 million more.

I wonder if that's the result of the kind of thing we saw in testimony before the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence on October 20, when the CSIS deputy director of operations, in speaking about those who've returned from abroad and may have been radicalized and trying to investigate them, said several things. One thing he said was, “We can't devote all our resources to all of them all the time.” He went on to talk about the “limited resources” for monitoring those people.

Again, how does the minister square this $43 million in reduced spending since 2012 with coming here today to ask for another $5.2 million, when his officials have publicly said they didn't have enough to monitor all those who've returned from abroad?