Evidence of meeting #45 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Head  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Harvey Cenaiko  Chairperson, National Parole Board

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

I want to welcome all of our colleagues.

Colleagues, welcome back after a bit of a frosty break. As far as the temperature is concerned, I'm sure we can heat up the room here as we move forward. Of course we're all envious of Mr. Garrison's 15 to 20 degrees above Celsius.

This is meeting number 45 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Our orders of the day are to study Bill C-12, an act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.

Appearing before us as a witness today is the Honourable Steven Blaney, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. He will be with us for the first hour. Accompanying Mr. Blaney for the duration from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness is Kathy Thompson, assistant deputy minister of community safety and countering crime branch. We also have, from the Correctional Service of Canada, Don Head, commissioner. From the Parole Board of Canada, we have Harvey Cenaiko, chairperson.

Ladies and gentlemen, let us go right to our meeting.

Minister, I presume you have an opening statement. You have the floor, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Lévis—Bellechasse Québec

Conservative

Steven Blaney ConservativeMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Chair, I have a prepared statement. However, I don't have a copy of it in both official languages for the members. I will be very pleased to share it with you.

Mr. Chair, thank you for welcoming me.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order. It's my usual point of order when this minister appears.

I find it extremely unacceptable that a minister of the crown comes before this committee and doesn't have his remarks in written form that we can follow as he goes along. It's just plain unacceptable, Minister, and I ask you to reconsider this for the next time you appear.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Ms. Ablonczy, on a point of order.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Chair, I sat in opposition for 13 years. I heard many Liberal ministers. They never had a statement.

Mr. Easter is being completely disingenuous, and I'd ask him to stop that.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much.

We won't get into debate right now. The point has been mentioned and a counterpoint made.

We will now go to Minister Blaney. Continue with your opening remarks, please.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The committee will have to consider important bills over the coming weeks and months. Thank you for having me again this morning as part of the study of the bill on drug-free federal prisons.

Once again, I want to thank committee members for inviting me here today to discuss this important legislation, the drug-free prisons act.

The bill before you today aims to provide the Parole Board of Canada with new tools. That body has to ensure that prisoners stop using drugs, be it in the prison system or in the community—for instance, when they are on parole. Mr. Chair, it is important to understand that the objective of Canadian correctional services is rehabilitation. The idea is to take into consideration an inmate's situation when they are incarcerated and be able to provide them with tools that will help them reintegrate into society in a constructive manner.

In order to assist us in our deliberations on this important bill, I am pleased to be joined by the assistant deputy minister, Kathy Thompson; the commissioner of Correctional Service of Canada, Don Head; and Harvey Cenaiko, the chairperson of the Parole Board of Canada. On behalf of all of us, I thank them for their important work to keep us safe.

As the committee members know, the sale and use of drugs in our penitentiaries is not a new problem or one that is easy to resolve. We must first recognize that a problem exists and take steps to understand its pervasiveness and be able to eradicate it.

Approximately 75% of inmates entering federal prisons have a history of drug or alcohol use. This means that 15 out of every 20 inmates will require some sort of substance abuse programming as part of their correctional plan.

In order to correct these behaviours, one of the biggest problems we need to resolve is the fact that drugs and other contraband continue to enter and circulate in our correctional institutions.

While it seems logical that prisons should be free from drugs, the problem persists. Every year, our correctional officers work to remove these illegal drugs. In fiscal year 2013-14, we saw 2,406 drug-related seizures in federal prisons. The rate of seizures has been steadily increasing since our Conservative government was elected.

Over the past few years, our government has invested in measures that help correctional services control the smuggling of drugs into our federal prisons.

In our economic action plan 2008, we allocated $122 million to help develop a tougher approach to drug interdiction in our federal prisons.

Correctional Service Canada has expanded its drug detector dog program, which I have had an opportunity to look at. The agency has strengthened its ability to obtain security intelligence in institutions, increased the number of offenders under supervision in communities and helped establish stronger partnerships among law enforcement agencies.

Building on those significant investments, we have taken strong legislative actions to place a greater emphasis on offender accountability.

That is the goal of the Safe Streets and Communities Act. This piece of legislation adds a legal obligation to establish a correctional plan that encompasses a wide range of elements, including drug addiction. As soon as inmates start serving their sentence, we want to equip them with tools that will help them reintegrate into society free of addiction to alcohol or drugs.

That important bill also established tough mandatory sentences for those caught trying to sell drugs on prison grounds.

However, there is still work to be done. The bill on drug-free prisons will constitute another legislative tool for dealing with this ongoing problem.

It will be part of our ongoing efforts. In 2011, our Conservative government made a commitment to Canadians to work to eradicate drugs from behind bars. We will ensure that every federal inmate will undergo drug testing at least once a year, that every federal inmate who is found to be in possession of illicit substances will face appropriate additional charges, and that any parole applicant who fails a drug test will be denied parole.

We are already seeing progress when it comes to the first two points. Correctional Service Canada has taken decisive action to help honour the commitment to subject each inmate to testing annually.

Urinalysis to detect levels is a key measure for corrections staff. To this end, the CSC increased its monthly random urine testing from 5% to 8% of inmates and then, in April 2013, from 8% to 10%.

This approach has yielded concrete results. In 2013-14, correctional services carried out more than 16,000 urine analyses in prisons—a 114% increase over 2011-12.

As our government increased testing and enforcement, the logical results followed. The percentages of positive tests and refusals have declined, which indicates that the availability of drugs has substantially decreased. This progress is the result of our government's strong actions.

Furthermore, CSC is working to fulfill our second commitment. CSC is now taking the commonsensical step of automatically referring cases of drug possession to law enforcement for appropriate action. As well, efforts are under way to impose tougher institutional fines on inmates found guilty of disciplinary offences; so if you are caught with a positive test in a penitentiary, you will face the consequences.

Our government is currently considering a regulatory reform that will be necessary to increase those charges. The Drug-Free Prisons Act will help us fulfill the third commitment from our 2011 platform—denying parole to applicants who fail a drug test. You can understand the logic behind this, Mr. Chair. Our goal is rehabilitation. We want inmates who still have substance abuse problems to benefit from the available rehabilitation programs and break free from their addiction before being released.

To do this, we are proposing two amendments to the Corrections and Conditional Release Act that are meant to provide additional legal tools to the Parole Board of Canada, which is represented here this morning by its chairperson, Mr. Cenaiko.

First, this bill would ensure that the Parole Board has the explicit authority to cancel parole after it is granted if an offender fails or refuses to take a urine test before he or she is released.

If an offender fails their drug test or refuses to participate, Correctional Service Canada would have to pass that information on to the Parole Board of Canada. That information would enable the board to review its decision, if it deemed it necessary.

Second, the bill would clarify the parole board's authority to apply a special condition that requires offenders to abstain from using drugs and alcohol once they are released on parole.

This authority is another important tool for fighting against illicit drug use and breaking the crime cycle beyond the bars of our prisons.

If offenders do not abide by these conditions, their parole can be immediately revoked.

Those two changes will help put more emphasis on offenders' responsibility. The ball will be in their court in order to help each and every one of them take control of their condition.

That is exactly what we promised Canadians in the last election and we are proud to deliver.

Mr. Chair, our Conservative government has a credible plan for tackling the issue of drugs in our prisons.

The challenge we are facing is complex, Mr. Chair.

Drugs are illegal in our penitentiaries, but we have to face this reality and take steps to eradicate it. We have used three measures to do this since we took office. Two of those measures have already been implemented. This morning, with the committee's support, we will be able to adopt a third measure, which is part of our commitment to eliminating the presence of drugs in our prisons.

I am now available to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Minister, for your dissertation this morning.

Now we will go to our rounds of questioning. The first round, of course, will be for seven minutes.

We will start off with the parliamentary secretary, Ms. James, please.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Minister Blaney, for appearing today on this important bill.

In your opening remarks, you stated that approximately 15 out of 20 offenders who are admitted to federal penitentiaries require some sort of substance abuse program. I think this ties into the very fact that many serious crimes are related to individuals who struggle with illegal drug use, with addictions of some sort, or are crimes that are connected to the illegal drug industry.

This may sound like a silly question, but do you think Canadians would think that a government should simply turn a blind eye on illegal drug use in prisons, given the fact that in many cases these inmates are in prison related to the very same issue that we're trying to stop in this bill? A second part to that question is do you think that Canadians think, in addition to simply turning a blind eye, they should be able to do this without any sort of ramification?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I would be delighted to tell you that there is absolutely no presence of drugs in our penitentiaries, but unfortunately, this is not exactly the case. That's why we need to have the courage to tackle this issue. The way we can do that is, first, by reducing the possibility of drugs entering our facilities. That is what our commissioner has been working on over the course of several years.

Prisons are small communities, and like any community, every day hundreds of people pass in and out of these facilities. There are many kinds of people working in them, entering for their shifts. There are garbage trucks. There is food entering. There are inmates going in and out to medical treatments. There are offenders being gradually released who leave for a few hours and come back. They may leave for court appearances. They have visitors and sometimes those visitors may not be helpful for the rehabilitation of those inmates.

We need to adapt. We've even seen drugs entering our facilities by projectile. People can be very creative. That's why it's a big challenge for our correctional services officers.

The core of the problem is that if you enter a facility with an addiction problem and you are trying to continue that addiction, you are not headed toward sound rehabilitation. The first goal of the Correctional Service of Canada is that, while serving a sentence, an inmate has to be given the opportunity to get back into society in a constructive manner. That is why we need to eradicate the presence of drugs, but first we need to acknowledge there is a problem.

We have an issue with drugs in our facilities. That's what the commissioner is dealing with on a daily basis. That's why we've increased the resources to limit the introduction of drugs into our facilities. We have seen the results, with the dogs especially being able to detect the presence of drugs on visitors. These are the kinds of measures we have, but one thing will always remain: Every individual has a choice to make and we have to provide them with the tools, so that if they decide to be free of drugs, they will be able to achieve this goal and get back into society in a constructive manner.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Individuals with a serious addiction problem, whether that be illegal drugs or alcohol and so on, have less of an opportunity to lead productive lives and participate in the full economy of our society. For someone who continues to use illegal drugs, who has addiction problems within the jail system, what is the likelihood that when they are eventually released they would be able to lead a successful life, if we didn't implement this type of legislation and if they were still having the same addiction problems?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Wisely, while serving their sentences, inmates can take advantage of the resources we provide them in terms of the opportunity to get into therapy to get free of their addictions. That's why we want to make sure, especially when we are granting parole, that if an individual tests positive, then this is not a condition for successful rehabilitation. That is why we want this to be taken into account when granting the possibility for an inmate to leave the facility. That's why we feel it is important to offer inmates the opportunity to get free by taking advantage of our rehabilitation program.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

In your opening remarks you indicated that this legislation really puts the accountability back on the inmates. I think your exact words were that the onus is on them.

What is in this legislation that would ensure that the inmates know that the legislation is there and that if they do fail a drug test or if they refuse a drug test, that may impact their eligibility for parole? Will they be fully informed in order for them to make the right choices when they are within the prison system?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Absolutely. You raise a good point. The goal of the legislation is, first, to provide the Correctional Service of Canada with the tools to be able to monitor and face this issue, but also to put the responsibility on the inmate to take his own potential consumption into account, and that it is not helping anyone in terms of getting out of prison. That's exactly the goal we are pursuing. Of course, measures will be taken to communicate this information, but the result is fairly simple and clear: if you are up for parole and you test positive, you're not free for parole and you stay in jail. The message is clear.

I believe this is a strong incentive for individuals to take responsibility for their consumption, and take advantage of what is provided in our facilities for therapy. The commissioner can speak at length on what is offered to the inmates so they can be free of their drug addictions. While serving their sentence they can also get free of their addiction. As I've indicated, almost 75% of inmates entering our facilities may have drug addiction problems. We know that a drug-related issue is an aggravating factor in terms of the potential for committing crime. That's why this bill is a step in the right direction. This is a big issue. It is not a simple one. This is an issue that all modern countries are facing in their facilities. We take the road of empowering the inmates in their own personal choices so they can get rehabilitation and take the therapies that are offered, and also to reduce the possibility for them to get those products that are not helpful for them.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will go to Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the minister and officials for being here today.

I don't think there's any dispute around the table about the two quite small measures that are in the bill. In fact, we all know that both of these are already common practice at the Parole Board. The bill has a very comprehensive title. The bill says “drug-free prisons”. From the remarks I've heard from the minister, I guess I'd say it's a new year, but it's not a new song. The minister appears to be continuing to confuse the symptoms with the problem. The problem is addiction. The problem is not drugs in prison. That's a symptom of the problem we have generally in society and in our prisons.

The minister talked again about punishment and individual responsibility. These are not solutions to drug addiction. People who are addicted don't respond to those same triggers that other people respond to.

I would agree with Mr. Easter that we haven't seen the text of the minister's statement and it's hard to see where he's talking about the actual treatment programs in prisons. We know that since 2010 we have an additional 1,000 people in Canadian prisons. We know the correctional services budget has been cut. We know that the correctional services budget only spends about 3% of all its budget on programming.

The minister said that 75% of the people going in have addiction problems. My question for the minister is, are they being treated? Are 75% of the people in the prison system receiving addiction treatment? I think we know the answer, but I'd like to hear it from the minister since it wasn't in his presentation.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

There are some inaccuracies in your question, but let me try to shed some light on your comments.

First, yes, drug addiction is a personal problem. It is the personal responsibility of an individual to take the necessary steps to get free of addiction. Our role is to offer them the support, the help, and the tools that are needed. In fact, we are doing so. We are investing tens of thousands of millions in our correctional facilities to help inmates with the different issues. In fact, you may be interested in knowing that for those individuals seeking a drug-related therapy, 95% of inmates are being provided with the therapy.

Yes, the Correctional Service of Canada is providing help and support to those who need it. That's part of their rehabilitation program. That's why we've been investing in rehabilitation, but that's why we also need to invest in reducing the possibility of drugs entering our facilities, and for anyone who is caught testing positive, to give those individuals the opportunity to get therapy.

If we don't have this testing and if we don't test the inmates randomly like we do, we won't know we have a problem; we won't be helping the inmate and we won't be helping society. The individual will go back into society with a drug addiction problem. You can be sure that there is a strong possibility the individual will come back into our facility, and we'll be dealing again with the same problem.

That's why we are moving forward. That's why we are increasing random testing. The first way to solve the problem is to recognize there is a problem.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Minister, if you say 95% of those who seek treatment are getting it, then the statistic you are leaving out is how many are seeking treatment. If you are leaving it to them to do it voluntarily, then obviously there is a much smaller number seeking treatment.

The problem here seems to be the lack of people seeking treatment, and that's something corrections has the responsibility to examine.

It's a classic kind of supply and demand. As long as you have people with serious addictions in prison, human ingenuity being what it is, they will try to find ways to get those drugs into prison.

What percentage have in their correction plans drug treatment and what percentage are receiving that treatment; not how many want treatment, but what percentage of those with these problems have it in their correction plans and are receiving that programming? Let's not talk about wait-lists, or those who may receive it in the future. What percentage are receiving the treatment?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Well, I'd say just as I have indicated to you, of those who require therapy, 95% are offered and are taking this therapy. So our program—

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

With respect, you have just said two different things. Before you said “those seeking”, and now you're saying “those who require”. Which ones are we dealing with here with the 95%?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Of those who need therapy, 95% get the therapy.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Is there a report you could present to us showing this?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Let me give you some more numbers that are encouraging and are indicating we are moving forward in the right direction.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

With respect, Mr. Minister, is there a report you can show us to demonstrate what you just said, that 95% of those who need therapy are getting it? Has a report been tabled in the House? Has it been in an annual report? I haven't seen that figure.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

What I can tell you is we are offering therapy. We are offering therapy to those who need it, to those who want it, to those who are eligible for it because they have drug-related issues, and 95% of those individuals are receiving the therapy. The therapy is there.

The problem is the fact that we need to make sure those individuals are not only being offered therapy, but also don't have access to drugs.