Public Safety Committee on Jan. 27th, 2015

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I would ask you again, Mr. Minister, will you table that report with this committee?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

The commissioner is here, and he can respond at length to your question.

Let me just give you an example. We received encouraging results with the drug testing. Now we are randomly testing inmates once a year in our facility. In 2013-14, we received 16,500 urinalysis tests that were given in the penitentiaries. As you know, as we speak, we have fewer inmates than that, so it means some inmates were tested twice during the year.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

During the year?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Well, of those 16,000, 1,021 tested positive and 1,139 tests were refused. It means that 6% of tests came back positive, and approximately 7% were refused by inmates.

This means that 87% of—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Minister, with respect, you said that 95% are getting treatment. Now you've just said that 13% have tested positive.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

No, no; wait.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Something doesn't add up here.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

No, no; don't mix oranges and apples, my dear colleague.

What I'm telling you is that 87% of the tests we conducted indicated that those individuals don't need treatment because they're drug-free; that's 87% of the tests we conducted. Of those who either tested positive or could have in a drug addiction program, 95% are getting the therapy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Your time has expired, Mr. Garrison. You can certainly follow up at a later time with the minister.

We will now go to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses and the minister for attending today.

Minister, I'd like to keep things simple. We can throw percentages and numbers and a whole lot of things out there, but my message, and I think your message, isn't to the people sitting in this room or around this table; our message is to the men and women who formulate the population of this country and whose expectation is that when people go to prison, they do not have access to drugs.

In previous committees where this issue has been brought up, the opposition has said that you must be dreaming if you ever hope to eradicate 100% of drugs from prison. I think the answer is that probably not ever will there be a 100%—since we're talking about percentages—drug-free prison. But for members of Parliament, those men and women whom we are very proud of in the correctional service, who help keep us safe and provide the necessary programming to those in our prisons, we have to keep safe, we have to provide them with the ability to help those who are in prison get rid of their addiction.

Would you not agree with me, Minister, that one of the best ways to help people leave their addiction behind is for them to be in a place where they cannot obtain or have access to that very thing, whether it be drugs, alcohol, or tobacco for that matter? Wouldn't that be the best first step?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your question.

I think we have two different approaches to the reality of drugs in prison. Our government, the Conservative government, is saying we need to eradicate this issue. Unfortunately, we've seen the opposition, the NDP, say to give them more needles. This is not what this government intends to do. If we find an individual who has a drug addiction problem in our facilities, we want to give him the opportunity to get therapy. Correctional Services Canada provides a range of internationally accredited substance abuse programs to offenders whose dependence on substances is related to their criminal behaviour. We're offering a helping hand to those inmates in facilities so that they can get drug-free and maybe resolve an issue they had before entering our facilities. We've seen that 75% of the inmates who enter our facilities have a drug issue-related problem.

As I just indicated to our colleague, through our random testing we found that 87% tested drug-free. For those who test positive, we now offer them therapy. By participating in substance abuse programs and aftercare, offenders learn to manage their patterns of substance abuse, with the ultimate goal of decreasing the chance that they will reoffend. That's also why, with the support of the committee and the bill that is in front of you, if an inmate is found to test positive before parole, we want to empower the Parole Board to say to that individual, “You are not in a state where you have a chance to successfully reach the goal of your rehabilitation program, which is to be drug-free.” That's why we want to give the opportunity to those inmates to stay in our facilities, so that they can have access to those therapies.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

So you would agree with me, then, that for people who are addicted and who, for various reasons, have a very difficult time controlling their addiction, the availability of drugs is not helpful, and that this piece of legislation and our concentration on trying to keep our prisons free of drugs go a long way to assisting those who are in our correctional system to be successfully rehabilitated and to rid themselves of this problem. Would you not agree with me that in this social atmosphere, and in the modern social atmosphere in our prisons, we have, of course, the gang issue? I have in my riding one of Canada's largest prisons. It's a medium-security prison. The people who work there—the wonderful men and women who help keep us safe and rehabilitate prisoners—tell me that these medium-security prisons are now getting more dangerous because of the influence of gangs, because of the exterior pressure on family, because of the ingenious ways in which they get drugs into prisons, in some cases—one hates to say it—even in the diapers of the infants who are there for conjugal visits or for visits with their mom or dad.

I wonder if you could comment on those modern-day realities we're faced with in our prisons today.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your question. Earlier I touched on the challenges that our correctional services officers face when dealing with the numerous opportunities and the circulation of goods and unwanted goods in our facilities. Commissioner Head can comment further on this, but one thing we've certainly noticed in the past is that some visitors may represent the potential for carrying unwanted substances. We have to make sure that correctional services have the authority to prevent those potential threats from entering our facilities in order to maintain a drug-free lifestyle in our prisons.

If I may, Mr. Norlock, let me share with you the positive results we get from our national substance abuse program. It works in our facilities. Correctional Service of Canada is devoting large efforts to supporting inmates who enter into a rehabilitation program. There are very positive results compared to the results for offenders who do no participate in the national substance abuse program. They are almost five times more likely to be granted conditional release because they are drug-free; they are 45% less likely to return due to a new offence, and they are 63% less likely to return due to a new violent offence.

Those numbers say that the programs put in place by Correctional Services to help inmates get free of drugs are an investment, actually, because they prevent inmates from reoffending and being put back into our facility.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will go to Mr. Easter, please, for seven minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Minister, I don't think there's any question that of course we need to do our best to ensure that prisons are drug-free. In order to do that, we need to reduce the market for the drugs, which is inmates using drugs. It's the same as it is in society: if there's no market, then we don't have too much to worry about.

I've even had parents come to me—and there was nothing we could do about it—when their children have been sentenced to two years less a day, which is under the provincial system, to ask if there's any way they could get two years plus so they'd go into the federal system and maybe get some drug treatment. That's how serious the parents were.

There are two approaches that may be taken, or maybe a combination of both. One is penalties, which this bill seems to be all about, and the other is treatment for what's clearly a serious problem.

Minister, you said in your remarks that you were proud to deliver. Let's be honest: you haven't delivered anything other than a piece of paper that says penalties are going to be the answer.

I'm wondering if either you or CSC can tell us from your analysis how much you think these penalties are going to cost the system in terms of longer incarceration and people not being productive in society because they're in prisons. Can you tell us whether or not you think that money might be better spent in a treatment program, which your government has cut back?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your question. While I am pleased to answer, I respectfully and totally disagree with your comments and question.

It is not because we don't want to see a problem that there is no problem. It is not because you are not getting the tools to see the magnitude of the issue that there is no problem. That's the position this government has taken.

We have a French expression:

“Take the bull by the horns”. This means that we recognize the challenge of the presence of illegal drugs in our penitentiaries. We recognize that 75% of inmates serving a sentence in our prisons have addiction issues.

As I said this morning, we have implemented measures in order to systematically administer drug tests. This will help us identify individuals with drug use problems and provide them with approved therapy that has been tailored to their condition. We could be talking about addiction to opioids or the famous methadone treatment.

Correctional Service Canada has really developed an expertise so that it can provide treatments for inmates with addiction problems. Those treatments have positive effects. They reduce the risk of recidivism among those inmates while increasing their chances of being released.

What we are proposing this morning is not punishment. The goal is to let inmates with addiction issues know that they are not ready to be released because they still have a substance abuse problem and could end up back in prison. We want to keep the inmate in the system and provide them with access to therapy, which produces rather dramatic results.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Minister, you're not getting any argument from me on the need for therapies. My problem is that your approach as a government seems to be: let's just increase the penalties and that will solve the problem.

If you go to the correctional investigator's report of 2013-14, he was critical of the government's continued refusal to develop a comprehensive program to respond to drug use in prisons. That's part of the problem.

On the numbers, I think he said that he agreed with the number that 75% of federal inmates have a substance abuse problem. But the budget has been cut to $8.7 million, which is a decline from the $11 million allocated in 2008-09. Now, the two don't match.

You're going to catch people who fail the urine test. Is the government putting more money into substance abuse programs within CSC so that you can cure these problems? Just having the penalty is not enough. You need the substance abuse program. That's what the correctional investigator is saying you're short on and we're saying you're short on. You have to do both.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Chair, it is difficult to offer therapy to an inmate without knowing that they have a problem. Testing is beneficial because it helps identify inmates with substance abuse issues.

Correctional Service Canada has established a public health program focused on epidemiology and supervision, testing, prevention and control, care, treatment, support and health education. Nearly 95% of inmates who need therapy have access to it.

I would like to make something clear this morning. We have to provide therapies and take steps to eliminate drugs from our prisons, but that's no reason to throw taxpayers' money out the window.

I am very proud of the efforts made by Correctional Service Canada to reduce spending. For example, we have centralized meal distribution. The money saved can be reinvested in treatments for inmates with substance abuse problems, testing or the use of drug-detecting dogs to prevent drugs from coming into our prisons.

We are responsible for managing taxpayers' money, and that is what we are doing. One way to reduce crime and the risk of recidivism is to deal with substance abuse problems in our prisons. This is a wise investment, and we will continue with this approach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Easter. Your time is up.

We will now go to Madam Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the officials and the minister for joining us in this committee. It's greatly appreciated.

I'm glad we are talking about Bill C-12 today, but especially about the issue of drugs and substance abuse in our prisons. I think everyone here agrees that there is a problem in our penitentiaries, from coast to coast to coast, and that we cannot ignore it. I think it has to be addressed. It's interesting to hear the comments and questions from around the table.

We all know that inmates in our prisons will have to reintegrate into society. It is our duty, as parliamentarians—and especially yours, as Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness—to ensure that these individuals become upstanding citizens once they are released. That is why we have to make sure the best tools are available. The figures you are showing us on treatments and substance abuse have given me a lot to think about.

You talked about the positive aspect of testing that has been done and treatments available to those inmates. You specified that therapy was available to 95% of prisoners.

I would like to know whether there is currently a waiting list and, if so, whether it's a long one. Are all those inmates, who account for 95% of the prison population, undergoing treatment or are they on a waiting list?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

The objective is to provide treatment to individuals who, during their time in a federal correctional facility, are determined to have substance abuse issues and who want to participate in a rehabilitation program. In fact, 95% of inmates undergo treatment before being released on parole. We manage these situations, and the results enable us to say that any inmates who need therapy and wish to undergo treatment have an opportunity to do so before their parole.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do those individuals have to put their name on a waiting list to have access to the treatment programs available in penitentiaries?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I will let someone else answer that question.

I would invite Commissioner Don Head to talk on the management of the rehabilitation program.

[Don Head, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you, Minister.

We do have waiting lists for various programs. We prioritize the offenders' participation in programs depending on their eligibility dates for potentially day parole, full parole, and statutory release. Ideally those who have a release coming sooner than somebody else will be at the top of the waiting list or already in programs. We target offenders who are likely to be released to go into the programs first, and we'll gauge the right time for those we have for longer periods of time to be placed in programs.

Because it's a question that the minister has been asked several times, I will mention that although we have very specific drug programs, we have revamped our program suite in the last couple of years so that at the initial stages of admission offenders now are partaking in what's called the integrated correctional program model. They're starting to get the primers for the programs, the prerequisite modules to those programs, within their first 90 days in the institution. We're taking very seriously this issue of getting inmates to programs as soon as possible. We are using the new integrated correctional program model in two of our five regions right now.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Please bear with me, as I am something of a neophyte when it comes to substance abuse treatments.

What is the average length of an inmate's treatment?