Evidence of meeting #60 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terrorism.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Harris  Director, International Intelligence Program, INSIGNIS Strategic Research, As an Individual
Zarqa Nawaz  Author, As an Individual
Ray Boisvert  President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual
Ziyaad Mia  Member, Legal Advocacy Committee, Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association
Steven Bucci  Director, Allison Center for Foreign and National Security Policy, Heritage Foundation
David Inserra  Lead, Homeland Security Policy and North America, Heritage Foundation
David Cape  Chair, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Colleagues, we're going to start.

Good morning to our colleagues, and certainly our witnesses. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to meeting number 60 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today we are continuing our study of Bill C-51.

Our witnesses this morning will have up to 10 minutes, as our orders stand, for their opening statements. Hopefully they will be briefer than that, to allow a little bit more time for questions by our members and answers.

I will first welcome David Harris, director of the international intelligence program, INSIGNIS Strategic Research. We have as well, as an individual, Zarqa Nawaz. Thank you so much. Also as an individual, we have Ray Boisvert, president and chief executive officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies.

We will go right at it, so we will not waste any time whatsoever.

Mr. Harris, you're up, sir.

8:45 a.m.

David Harris Director, International Intelligence Program, INSIGNIS Strategic Research, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I'm David Harris, a lawyer and director of the international intelligence program of INSIGNIS Strategic Research lnc. I have had about three decades' experience in intelligence affairs, including service as an intervenor counsel before the Air India inquiry and Iacobucci internal inquiry, subjects that have arisen, of course, in the course of your considerations.

Canada's security situation is deteriorating. Conventional military and hostile intelligence challenges are manifest, and terror's reach into Canada should have been apparent years before October's terror murders galvanized the public. Canada's position is complicated vastly by an enormous per capita immigration rate approaching 300,000 per annum—half a million if we include so-called temporary visa holders—many from jurisdictions where we have little access for screening purposes.

Bill C-51 is a partial response to our security predicament. lt attempts to come to grips with issues of information sharing, aviation security, terrorist propaganda, and disruption operations. The government deserves our support for the effort, but adjustments may be necessary. Proposed CSIS disruption measures, a necessary tool, could benefit from more consideration and perhaps extensive review approaches. Terrorism advocacy provisions must be consistent with free expression guarantees in the charter. The proposed Criminal Code subsection 83.221(1) should be clarified. Review mechanisms connected to the admirable objective of facilitating information sharing within government should be reinforced. Having said all this, we should find some reassurance in the fact that government activity is subject, of course, to the Constitution.

Before proceeding in detail, I am obliged to clarify matters arising from a recent committee session. l learned later, to my surprise, that I was named there by a member as the source of information upon which was based a question to a witness, the representative of the National Council of Canadian Muslims—NCCM. The NCCM representative responded by saying that the questions were "McCarthyesque". Clarification will be important to the committee's truth-seeking function, and the relevance of these comments in national security terms will become readily apparent. My remarks on this subject are simply my personal opinion on a matter of pressing public interest based on my having followed this group's progress across about 15 years.

The NCCM was founded in 2000 as the Canadian Council on American-lslamic Relations, CAIR-CAN, the Canadian chapter of the Washington, D.C.-based, Saudi-funded Council on American-lslamic Relations, CAIR. This Canadian chapter was founded by Dr. Sheema Khan, with the assistance of Mr. Faisal Kutty and others. ln 2003, as CAIR-CAN founding chair, Dr Khan swore an affidavit asserting that CAIR-CAN was under the direction and control of the U.S. mother organization. By about 2004, several significant former U.S. CAIR personalities and other associates had been convicted of terrorism-related offences, CAIR's former national civil liberties coordinator among them. For a period during her CAIR-CAN chairmanship, Dr. Khan sat on the U.S. CAIR organization's board. According to a 2006 National Post report, CAIR-CAN contributed payments to the Washington office from CAIR-CAN revenue.

ln 2007, the U.S. Department of Justice designated the CAIR mother group—

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

A point of order.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Garrison.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Chair, the witness has been invited here before us to testify on Bill C-51 rather than on the background of other witnesses whom we have already heard. So I would ask the chair to remind the witness of the question of relevance to the matter before us.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

The chair would do that, but the chair would also acknowledge that the witness has an opportunity to respond to previous testimony that has been given relative either to statements he made or did not make. But I would certainly encourage the witness to try to stay as close as possible to Bill C-51, with regard to the purpose and intent of the bill, obviously. But you certainly have the right to defend yourself against allegations and/or improprieties, as you deem fit, that would cast either a negative or positive light on testimony that has been given at this committee.

So, carry on, sir.

8:50 a.m.

Director, International Intelligence Program, INSIGNIS Strategic Research, As an Individual

David Harris

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In 2007, the U.S. Department of Justice designated the CAIR mother group an “unindicted co-conspirator” in the successful U.S. Holy Land Foundation terrorist funding prosecution. When CAIR challenged the justice department designation in U.S. district court, the court upheld the designation, ruling that “[The] Government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR...with Hamas.” Hamas is a terrorist entity under Canadian and U.S. law. The FBI ended outreach dealings with the CAIR mother organization in 2008, and the relevance of this to outreach and aspects involving counter-radicalization relative to the legislation will become increasingly relevant.

In 2013, CAIR-CAN, the Canadian chapter, changed its name to the present National Council of Canadian Muslims, NCCM. Some argued that this was an attempt to divert attention from its CAIR U.S. connection. If so, this has been undermined by the NCCM name change statement, indicating that NCCM and CAIR-CAN remain the same organization, despite the name change. The NCCM news release stating this appears to have been removed from the NCCM/CAIR-CAN website, but I'd be pleased to furnish the committee with a copy.

Several high-level NCCM officials and staff from the CAIR-CAN days remain in comparable positions in NCCM. Detractors assert that NCCM/CAIR-CAN has failed to condemn publicly and by name the U.S. mother organization for its radical connections and the terror convicts related to that U.S. organization. Some note a possible NCCM/CAIR-CAN disinclination to reveal financial books and other records likely to explain its involvement with CAIR in Washington, and other links. Others have expressed concern about the organization's alleged tendency to spread an exaggerated and divisive victimhood narrative at a time when many worry about alienating Muslim youth.

NCCM/CAIR-CAN's civil liberties bona fides have been doubted by some as the result of CAIR-CAN's part in the 2000s in what has been claimed to have been a “libel lawfare” campaign by it and its mother group to silence media questions about them, with multiple libel lawsuits. Please see Dr. Daniel Pipes' analysis titled “CAIR's Growing Litigiousness”. It appears that a public relations backlash forced NCCM/CAIR-CAN and CAIR to dismiss their own libel lawsuits and give up on “lawfare”, at least at that time. As reported in Maclean's, I was one of those commentators and civil liberties defenders who was sued in libel, fought to defend the responsible exercise of section 2 of the charter—free expression and journalistic freedom—and forced CAIR-CAN/NCCM to shut down its own suit without apology or payment.

In 2014, NCCM/CAIR-CAN and the Islamic Social Services Association, ISSA—the latter led by NCCM/CAIR-CAN board member Shahina Siddiqui—prepared a so-called counter-radicalization handbook , “United Against Terrorism”. But the RCMP, which had contributed a chapter to this, withdrew its support for the project, owing to “adversarial” aspects of parts of the text. There were also criticisms of the handbook's selection of recommended Islamic scholars, some of whom were said to be among this continent's most radical.

One of several examples is Dr. Jamal Badawi, an Egyptian-born Canadian who has been described as an international Muslim Brotherhood leader, is a U.S. unindicted co-conspirator and has reportedly advocated for physical punishment of wives and for polygamy. Badawi spent years as a CAIR-CAN era official. The handbook also recommended Siraj Wahhaj, who appeared on the U.S. government list of 1993 World Trade Center bombing unindicted co-conspirators and reportedly has made extreme statements. Recommendee Imam Zaid Shakir was condemned for his ideology by U.S. moderate leader Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, who has appeared before this committee and the Anti-Defamation League.

Despite the RCMP's withdrawal from the project, I recently heard that the handbook continues to be distributed at home and abroad with the RCMP's name on the cover—a disturbing situation.

So, to the present, I trust that this personal review of the record will cast a clarifying light on the NCCM's allegation before this committee that close questioning of the organization amounts to “McCarthyesque” conduct. Perhaps my analysis might assist the committee and Canadians, in general, in weighing pertinent testimony.

I look forward to questions.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

We will go to Ms. Nawaz. You have the floor.

8:55 a.m.

Zarqa Nawaz Author, As an Individual

Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee. It's my pleasure to be here today. I'd like to thank you for allowing me to participate in this very important discussion on Bill C-51, but no one can thank you more than my two sons, because this is parent-teacher conference time in Regina, Saskatchewan, and my boys got an unexpected reprieve. I'd like to reassure the committee that as soon as I get back home, I will be rescheduling that appointment with their teachers. I'm not here today to burden you with my domestic drama as a parent, but to talk to you about my feelings about Bill C-51.

I'm concerned about the negative rhetoric surrounding Bill C-51 and how this government sees the place of Muslims in Canada. Let me tell you a bit about my own experience, although you've probably all guessed by now that I'm not a lawyer or an academic. I'm primarily known in Canada as the creator of the TV series Little Mosque on the Prairie and now the author of Laughing All the Way to the Mosque, which is a memoir of my experiences growing up as a Muslim in Canada. I've spent a lot of time thinking, writing, and creating work about being a Canadian of Muslim faith.

A few weeks ago I was in France speaking to my French editor in a café in Paris. She asked me why I kept referring to myself as a Canadian. The question caught me off guard. I asked her what she meant. She said she's never met a Muslim who had such fierce loyalty to her country, and wanted to know how Canada had generated such passion in its citizens. The question caught me off guard. I didn't realize I was exuding so much Canadian fervour; it was almost un-Canadian. To be honest I had never considered why I loved Canada so much. I wasn't even born in Canada.

I was born in Liverpool, England, where my father was a civil engineer working on the Mersey Tunnels. I was five years old when the Canadian recruiters tried to convince my father to move his family to Canada and the promise of a better life there. He already had a good life and a good job in England, but there was something about their incredible zeal for wanting him to consider Canada as his country. My mother had enough of England's rainy weather, which was aggravating her asthma, so she voted “yes”. Excluding the first nations, who are the only indigenous people in this great land, our family like every other Canadian family that is here today left our home and moved to Canada. We joined the rich history of Muslim migration, which started at Canada's founding in 1867. Back then Muslims were farmers and fur traders who settled in western Canada, primarily Alberta, where the first mosque was built in 1938 and is now located at the museum of Fort Edmonton Park, where I had the honour of visiting a few months ago.

We settled in Brampton, Ontario. My father was employed as part of a team of engineers that built the CN Tower in Toronto in the 1980s. Growing up I was acutely aware that my family and I were part of the 250,000 immigrants that Canada needed to let in every year to maintain a healthy tax base if we were to survive as a nation. Even as a child I would find myself worrying about the Minister of Immigration and the Minister of Revenue. Did they stay up late at night wringing their hands in worry? Did they fantasize about adding fertility drugs to Canada's water supply to help grow our tax base? Like a lot of Canadians who took their kids to church, synagogue, or temple, my parents took us to the mosque to learn about Islam. We went to a mosque in Toronto that is a converted church, so in my mind mosques were basically churches with pews removed. To this day I'm never comfortable in a mosque unless it has a choir balcony and stained glass windows with crosses in them. It was Canadian culture and mosque culture that fused in my brain as a child.

Then in the 1990s I started to wear a hijab. I was one of the first waves of Muslim women in Canada to do so. The teachers at school were a little worried about my new-found religious zeal, but for the most part I was ignored and allowed to practise my faith as I chose. In those days no one cared what you wore as long as you weren't infringing on anyone's rights. You could stand in the citizenship ceremony wearing a papal hat or a niqab studded with diamonds, for all the Minister of Immigration cared at the time—although the Minister of Revenue would be very interested in where those diamonds had come from and if they had been taxed accordingly.

Human rights, pluralism, democracy, and feminism mixed into my cultural and religious upbringing. I watched the documentary Half the Kingdom, made by Canadian-Jewish feminists about sexism in the synagogue, and thought that if Jewish women could proudly champion their faith while still criticizing patriarchal practices within it, then so could I. I followed in their footsteps and made the documentary Me and the Mosque about similar practices in my community. Two years later I pitched a television series at the Banff Television Festival about a Toronto lawyer who gives up his lucrative Bay Street law career to become a penniless imam of an impoverished mosque that was renting space in an even more impoverished church. A mosque in a church has been the single most defining feature of my life growing up as a Canadian.

Little Mosque on the Prairie then became the most unlikely TV hit ever to hit Canadian airwaves. The entire world paid attention when the show aired. Little Mosque was forged from my experience growing up, seeing my faith through the lens of Canadian human rights and the struggle of Islamophobia outside my community and the struggles of patriarchy within it.

Little Mosque currently airs in over 60 markets around the world. Over the years I've had reporters from other countries watch the show with fascination. What I came to learn later was that this show was reflecting the essence of Canada and the success of multiculturalism. We are a country that has invited people from all races, ethnicities, and faith groups, and we have built a society that values each person's right to practise their way of life in the way they choose and still be a vibrant part of the Canadian fabric. In other words, the world was fascinated by what Canada got right and what so many other countries got wrong.

We are a country of immigrants, from the Chinese to the South Asians to the Ukrainians to the Italians, who literally built Canada from the ground up, with each wave of newcomers building upon the success of the last wave. Success for each group has meant success for everyone.

People ask me if being Muslim has held me back in Canada, but I always answer that I've always felt cherished and loved by my country. Even after 9/11, in Regina, Saskatchewan, an elderly woman grabbed my hand while I was shopping and said, “Don't blame yourself for what happened; you are not responsible”. Those feelings of affection and belonging got me through very difficult days when I felt the world would turn on my community for a crime committed by a group of violent extremists who claimed to represent my faith.

But in the last few months my husband and I have started to worry about what this government's negative rhetoric about Muslims in Canada is costing us. I worry that certain sentiments are starting to tear at the very fabric of our nation. I worry about what a child whose mother wears a niqab will be feeling as he listens to his Prime Minister talk about her in such disrespectful language.

Malala Yousafzai, who received a Nobel Peace Prize and honorary Canadian citizenship, also has a mother who wears a niqab. Would she be welcome here?

This isn't who we are as Canadians. It goes against our basic belief in Canadian values. It feeds straight into the rhetoric of international extremists who want Muslims to feel alienated from society, to feel as though we're not wanted and don't belong here.

To prevent feelings of alienation, mosques across the country are urging their members to ignore these Islamophobic sentiments and to continue to be engaged members of society, to participate, to contribute, to volunteer, to play our part in making Canada safe and secure. We, as citizens, will cooperate with the RCMP and our police forces, and with the laws currently in place. An engaged citizenry is and always has been the best defence against terrorism and radicalization to criminal violence.

As a community, we are doing everything in our power to combat the feelings that we have suddenly become a problem in Canada, but I am worried. I am a mother. I have four children, two daughters. One is studying in France and doesn't call home nearly enough. The other is a lifeguard and swimming instructor. She got a concussion the other week while playing rugby for the University of Regina team and won't listen to her parents about maybe taking a break so her brain will heal properly.

I have two boys in Campbell High School who play video games way too much, and who need to do a much better job of cleaning the bathrooms at home. One just turned 16, which means that I have to go through the rite of passage that every parent dreads—risk my life on Canadian highways as I teach him how to drive.

My husband works as a psychiatrist, specializing in children and adolescents, with the mental health services for the City of Regina. His father settled in Regina, Saskatchewan, over 40 years ago as an ear, nose, and throat surgeon. He founded the first mosque in Saskatchewan, where my kids learned their dreaded Arabic lessons every weekend.

My husband and I worry about the cost of sending four kids to university, two of which are already there. We worry about what will happen to the economy of our western provinces because of lower oil prices. We worry about the thousands of aboriginal women who have been murdered, and whose crimes have never been solved. I worry that domestic assault kills more women in Canada per year than all the police and firefighters combined. I worry about not recycling enough, and adding to the plastic island that's forming somewhere in the Pacific. And I worry about what Bill C-51 will do to our country.

A healthy, vibrant, and engaged Muslim community is the best defence against terrorism and radicalization towards criminal violence, and Bill C-51 undermines that. Increased marginalization and hysteria against Muslims are not the answer. What we really need is to work with each other at all different levels of society with mutual respect and cooperation. We need mosques to be more engaged with the social safety net of their communities so we can more easily bring help to the most vulnerable among us.

Muslims have contributed much to this great country and will continue to be a vital force in the coming elections, but the sense of belonging is also a vital ingredient for a civil society to succeed. It is what's missing in Europe. What I saw there was a broken Muslim population that knows it is not wanted or accepted. I grew up as an empowered Canadian citizen who loves her country and loves her faith, and has never been asked to choose between them—and that is what I told my French editor.

Thank you very much.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Ms. Nawaz.

If it's any comfort, I can assure you this committee has heard significant testimony with regard to the significant gap between Muslim, Islam, and Islamism. It's a dramatic difference, and I thank you for bringing your perspective here today.

We will now go to Mr. Boisvert, please.

9:05 a.m.

Ray Boisvert President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to speak to Bill C-51.

Almost three years ago, I left CSIS as the assistant director of intelligence. This was after almost three decades of work as an intelligence officer, a manager, and a senior executive of the service.

Over those 30 years, I witnessed first-hand the service's growth and its adaptation to constantly emerging threats during that tumultuous period.

In the earliest of days, after I joined CSIS in 1984, it was really all about the Cold War. It was about hunting spies or looking for alleged subversives. Concomitantly, it also involved homeland-based terrorism, such as that which was represented through the Armenian and Sikh extremism events in the 1980s.

In that first decade, I also witnessed the advent of Shia Hezbollah violence against the west, particularly in places such as Lebanon, and subsequently the emergence of right-wing militia groups in the U.S. and white supremacists in Canada during the 1990s, and of course throughout Europe today. Then, I had a front-row seat for the emergence of a new form of political/religious terror linked to Sunni extremism, that of al Qaeda, with its multiple permutations, be they the AQ, or al Qaeda, affiliates, or the current perversion known now as the Islamic State.

Over the course of my long career in national security—including my role as leader of the main group in charge of counterterrorism at CSIS—I never saw threats of the intensity we are facing globally today. Indeed, we have never faced such diverse, serious and complex threats.

Although I will focus my comments on counterterrorism, I would be remiss if I did not draw to the attention of the committee members the fact that the current threat environment is so much more than al Qaeda and the Islamic State, or homegrown radicalization as such. At the top of mind is cyber, from the substantive impact it continues to have on our future prosperity, through the theft of intellectual property, to the targeting of our critical infrastructure. That, in my estimation, is not yet properly defended.

As we can see with some of the current hot issues—like Ukraine—we also have to deal with the resurgence of a major Soviet-style threat. There is nothing harmless about the low-intensity hybrid warfare the totalitarian Russian regime is waging on the west. I would even go as far as to add that it is probably the most overlooked and underestimated of all the risks we are facing.

The issue of nuclear proliferation is once again a cause for deep concern, as it involves a potential renewed race to acquire weapons in the Middle East to match those of Israel's capability or Iran's aspirations. What of China rising, be its foreign interference, its ongoing military transformation, or its newly declared investments in an aggressive, multi-sector cyber-espionage program?

My point in underlining all of these is to suggest that enhancements proposed in Bill C-51, particularly those affecting the CSIS Act, should not be viewed as just being exclusive benefits to the country's counterterrorism programs.

I don't think the global climate has been this threatening since the years of turmoil leading up to the First World War. Therefore, I feel that now is the perfect time to make significant changes to Canada's security legislation. I am convinced that our country must be able to clearly understand the challenges and to respond effectively on multiple fronts.

Now, allow me to return to the principal matter of the growing threat of terrorism in the 21st century. It will no doubt be a long-term struggle to defeat this new terrorism variant. As a preventative measure, let me say that we must not allow this to be viewed or articulated as a challenge involving a specific religion, as it is not. Based on my professional experience, I can say that it is a struggle against a political/religious ideology that has all the DNA of fascist movements through history that have typically filled a social and economic void. However, it is a battleground where a combination of social investment, diplomacy, law enforcement, intelligence operations, and military capability will be necessary for us to succeed.

However, it is even more important to avoid counterproductive measures and not to let extremists win the public opinion battle by convincing people that we really are in the midst of a war between the west and Islam.

Whereas history and context matter, so do facts. As recently noted in a Department of Homeland Security, DHS, report, between 2007 and 2010 approximately 200 attacks linked to AQ and ISIS occurred worldwide. Available statistics for 2013 from DHS show that 600 such attacks linked to the same organizations have occurred.

Of course, there is nothing encouraging about Al Qaeda-linked attacks tripling in number. The tragic murder of 23 people in Tunis—most of them European tourists—is another striking example of how difficult it is to ensure the security of any society in the face of this kind of blind terror.

While at CSIS during the past decade, I can attest to the fact that we had recognized the age of globalization that applied to terrorism in equal measure to that of communications, manufacturing, and the services industry. You should be aware, therefore, that we had purposely evolved our operational doctrine to meet that reality. The new approach, in essence, was to engage threat wherever it may emerge. This was seen as essential and has proved to be successful in thwarting a number of threats targeting Canadians at home and abroad.

Despite those successes, only rarely could I indirectly provide Canadians with a high level of protection during my time in one the highest positions of responsibility in the fight against international terrorism. You may be wondering why, but the answer is simple. With each passing day, new situations emerge and scenarios take shape that have no precedent; the problems that arise as a result are never easy to resolve. Those posing the threats to us learn and innovate at the same pace as we do.

Similar to biologists struggling to contain drug-resistant bacteria, individuals and entities that cause harm were learning and adapting to this new threat environment. Threat actors went to school, as they say, via trial transcripts, news reports, procedural disclosures, or through stolen tradecraft secrets such as those allegedly delivered to the world by Edward Snowden. The ongoing challenge to secure this country is also due to the strategic shift of most terror organizations, moving from complex plots intended to deliver large scale atrocities to small, often individualized types of attacks, known broadly as lone actors.

As a result, the likelihood of detecting attacks and the window of opportunity between an attack being planned and then launched have decreased steadily over the past five years. The response times are increasingly short, and opportunities for thwarting the assailants' plans are more and more limited.

Finally, while I was with CSIS, I often worried that our tool kit was highly restricted by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act.

Disclosure rules of the day thwarted the flow of potential intelligence leads. Other impediments hampered the transfer of CSIS intelligence into viable evidence for the RCMP.

Most importantly, however, was the reality that the 1984 CSIS Act, created for a Cold War-era threat involving investigations that took years of slowly collected detail, was suddenly a living anachronism. Being limited to only "collect, analyze and report" on threats to national security, as set out currently in section 12 of the act, instantly jammed our ability to intercede with creative, low-cost, low-impact interdiction efforts. In other words, threat diminishment activities.

To be able to substantiate your study, you should know that many ideas have been received on how security agencies or organizations from around the world are managing to effectively counter threats to society or to a group of countries that share certain values.

Simply put, I would say that security is as much an art as it is an exact science, and probably more of an art than anything else.

Anti-terrorism is about weighing risks. lt is not, as some may hope, predicting the future. Although with the advent of ever-improving advanced analytics, analysts and enforcement teams are shifting that dynamic. Counterterrorism work is multifaceted. lt is about early detection, the assessment of its potential to strike, the allocation of resources around it, and weighing the many legal and policy considerations that may apply.

In addition, and where the risk management piece really applies in counterterrorism, is that the teams engaged in that area must continuously re-evaluate their targets in a process that constantly challenges their judgments on every case. This is done almost every day of every week.

In my estimation we have been both good and lucky. The former, of course, is almost always the byproduct of hard work and smart action. My fear, however, is that without some radical transformation of the enabling anti-terrorism framework, Canada will fall behind and our luck will run out again.

Critics have so far convinced a substantial segment of the population that our measures are dangerous and useless. I disagree with that point of view and I reject the “slippery slope” argument, as my 30 years of field experience have shown me that core Canadian values—such as the respect for human rights—are much less threatened than our interests, which are exposed to all sorts of malicious acts.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Boisvert, would you wrap up, please, sir.

9:15 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

Ray Boisvert

Certainly.

Since the creation of CSIS as a service, it has been subject to considerable review, and I might add that it is considered by its peers as a class-leading organization because of that review, and not despite it. Therefore, I strongly believe that in the age of accountability we are in, agencies and their leadership teams must be held to account.

They must explain what they are doing, why it is necessary and, if possible, generally speaking, when and where it is being done on behalf of Canadians. ln addition, but only in the rarest and most guarded circumstances, they may also have to talk a little about how they do that.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

I'm sorry, Mr. Boisvert, but you're well over your time. I'm going to have to cut you off here. I'm very sorry, sir, but we are certainly eating into the time for Q and A.

9:15 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

Ray Boisvert

I have covered the basis of my presentation.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

You're fine here now?

9:15 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very kindly.

We will now go to the rounds of questioning.

We'll start off with Mr. Falk, please.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here this morning. I've had a pleasant visit already this morning with Ms. Nawaz. She told me she isn't the actress my notes say she is, but the creator of the TV series.

Mr. Harris and Mr. Boisvert, I want to thank you for your work in protecting Canada in the different security organizations you have actively participated in.

Mr. Harris, I also want to thank you for your clarifying comments regarding testimony by a previous witness from NCCM, and also the clarification you provided about CAIR. I'm a little surprised at the intolerance demonstrated by my NDP colleagues on the other side of the table in truth-seeking and fact-finding, while at the same time showing a great deal of tolerance toward a witness who made a personal attack on a parliamentarian. It strikes me as very odd. So I want to thank you for the clarification you provided here this morning.

We've listened to a lot of testimony from people from the Muslim community, and one of the comments we heard yesterday from Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, the president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, struck me. I wrote it down because I thought it was noteworthy, and I just want to repeat it. He said that “...not all Muslims are Islamists, all radical Islamists are Muslim”.

That's interesting. We've heard testimony at this committee from a lot of people from the Muslim community who say that this bill does not reach far enough, and they are very concerned about radicalization, especially of the youth within their community, and concerned that is not at all representative of the Muslim community as a whole.

When I look at our bill, the bill isn't a bill about race, or culture, or religion. The bill is about anti-terrorism, and the bill itself doesn't define any of those things.

Based on your experience in the security organizations you've been involved in with CSIS, could you provide a little more commentary on the disruption powers this bill provides for?

Mr. Harris, I'd like to begin with you.

9:20 a.m.

Director, International Intelligence Program, INSIGNIS Strategic Research, As an Individual

David Harris

Thank you very much, sir.

I think the disruption powers, as described, are necessary. As I indicated earlier, they offer, low-cost alternatives, as Mr. Boisvert beautifully phrased it. These can be very important in moving decisively when there may be a risk situation developing.

I couldn't help but reflect upon the death of Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu. The perpetrator was, as you may recall, Mr. Chairman, the subject of fairly extensive efforts that were apparently to no avail. I think the RCMP brought in some Muslims who were attempting to assist in the situation, maybe an imam, and so on. In the end, we saw what the result was. Maybe this would have been unavoidable even with certain disruption possibilities; maybe there would have been peace bond options under the new legislation. It's very difficult to say.

When it does come to issues like disruption, however, it would be very important that the system be capable of following the execution of disruption exercises and operations, as authorized by federal warrant, as I think we're contemplating in this legislation. It's not entirely clear to me that we necessarily have all of that back-end emphasis in hand yet, but I would be optimistic that it can be properly shaped.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Good. Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Boisvert, you talked about all kinds of different threats. You talked about cyber-threats and acting effectively. Do you see the measures in Bill C-51 as addressing the threats that you've alluded to?

9:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

Ray Boisvert

The potential is clearly there, because some of the state actors, some of the countries that support international terrorism, are also some of the most important threats around proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, for example, and chemical weapons and other conventional weapons.

There is also ultimately the idea that with more capability, along the lines of more opportunities to be creative around the investigative efforts that CSIS would undertake, that could be very transformative. As I mentioned in my comments, CSIS was created at the time when we were in the Cold War. We were focused on counter-espionage operations—long term. Quite often an intelligence officer would arrive from the Soviet Union and we would take four years to decide whether or not that person was truly an intelligence officer. In today's threat environment, sometimes you have weeks, sometimes days, sometimes hours. Sometimes that threat could be very, very thin to notice on the threat scale.

As a result, the current mandate of CSIS is simply to collect intelligence, analyze, and give advice. In a case where we have to bring in a law enforcement agency such as the RCMP or CBSA, the efforts to try to take that intelligence and move it into useable evidence is a very long, detailed process. I was involved in it in the Toronto 18 investigation and in subsequent terrorism-related charges. I worked with the RCMP as the director general of counterterrorism. I can tell you it is a very complex choreography.

This bill will give CSIS a chance to more directly deal with threats without having to engage in that choreography.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

On a more timely basis....

9:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, I-Sec Integrated Strategies, As an Individual

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

You also mentioned cyber-threats, and I'd like you to expand a little bit on those, without talking about operational issues that are privy to. Could you discuss the significance and the seriousness of the cyber-threats that are out there, as well as maybe talk a little bit about social media threats? We've heard a lot about social media being one of the tools used by extremists to radicalize individuals.