Public Safety Committee on March 26th, 2015

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

We're about to run out of time. On the question of sharing, who do you see this bill allowing sharing with, both in terms of information and the no-fly list? Is this with foreign entities and private businesses? Is that allowed?

[Ziyaad Mia]

Clause 6 in SCISA 6 says that government can share with anyone for any purpose the information that's in that pool. Because the Minister of Transport and Minister of Public Safety have the no-fly list info, the way I see it, if you look at the chart, that can feed into the SCISA bubble, which is so broad, and then because of clause 6 and the 17 can leave the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Now Ms. Ablonczy, you have five minutes, please.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Bucci, I guess you could say you're an outsider and you're not caught up in the politics of our country.

It's always interesting to me that those who oppose this bill say things like, of course they're against terrorism, that they want to fight terrorism, but not with this bill, and who then go into a great deal of fearmongering, as you've just heard. They say it could could do this or that, that it's unconstitutional, that it's going to abrogate rights, and that Canadians don't really know whom to believe.

You're an outsider and you've studied these issues for many years and have dealt with them and led efforts in this regard. What's your take on this approach to combatting terrorism and the jihadist threat here in Canada?

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

I think it's quite obvious that the writers of the bill understood this was going to be a thorny issue. They're not foolish. You recognize in a democracy that we have these kinds of healthy debates, and we need to. We should always be ready to protect our constitutional liberties.

As conservatives we have a problem with this, because we like security, we want the security guys and gals to have everything they need, but we're really kind of big on civil liberties and individual rights. We don't ever want to lose them.

This is a tough thing. If it were that easy, you wouldn't have to take it to the House of Commons to write the law; everybody would just do it.

I think this is a good faith effort to do that.

Is it perfect? Probably not, it's made by humans.

Will it change over time as incidents or cases come up because somebody gets policed who shouldn't have and the cases go through the judicial review process and eventually get thrown out and you adjust the law? Absolutely, that will happen.

As I said, we're going through that now in the United States. I would expect that over time you will do that here in Canada. I think this is a good adjustment to your existing laws, that it will give you more security, while showing incredible respect for the civil liberties of your people. As you go forward, I think that anything that's left undone will get worked out.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

We've heard this morning that this bill is not about terrorism. Will you comment on that?

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

I would respectfully disagree with my colleague. I think it's everything about terrorism. As someone in the executive branch in our Department of Defense and as a soldier, an army Green Beret, who fought terrorism at the operational level, tactical level, and the strategic level, I believe you have to do the things that are mentioned here to some degree, or you're going to lose.

I, for one, don't want to see Canada lose that battle any more than I want my country to lose it. We're in this together and we don't want to see that happen, because the people we're fighting, particularly right now, are pretty heinous individuals and we can't afford to let them win.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I agree with that, and you probably are familiar with a recent article in The Atlantic called “What ISIS Really Wants”. It talks about their foreign policy, which it describes as an “'offensive jihad', the forcible expansion into countries that are ruled by non-Muslims.“, etc. I won't go into the whole article.

I'd like you to comment on that, because we really need to understand exactly what we're trying to protect ourselves and our country from.

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

Again, as I mentioned, this is a very small slice of the Islamic world, a tiny one, thank goodness, but they believe with all their heart that in the declaration of the caliphate they're going to take over the world.

In America before 9/11, we didn't believe al Qaeda when they said they were at war with us. It finally took 9/11 for us to realize that they actually meant it. We need to take ISIS at its word that they want to expand this caliphate around the world, they'll do anything they need to do that, including killing everyone in this room.

We need to recognize that and adjust our policies to it, always respectful of our rights and liberties, always protecting the things that make our countries unique, but we do have to take measures that protect ourselves because these guys are serious, it's real, and they're bad people.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Cape, I wonder if you'd comment on the questions that I've just addressed to Mr. Bucci.

[David Cape]

I think the bill addresses many of the concerns that our community faces with anti-Semitism, and our community all around the world has just been the subject of these terrorist attacks.

Again, I was with someone who, like me, is the president of his community. In Denmark, he took on leadership in a community to help build it and now he's got armed guards guarding children's schools, because one lone gunman that they knew about came in and shot the place up, killing a security guard. They're living in fear, but their governments aren't moving like our government is and I think that's making a big difference here, and we as Canadians are fortunate for it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Now we would like to welcome Mr. Vaughan, who's replacing Mr. Easter. You have the floor, sir.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I have a quick question for Mr. Bucci. Your country enshrines the right of citizens to bear arms, in part out of a revolutionary experience, in order to protect the liberties of individuals, and your constitution is framed with the opening phrase, “We the people...”. You mention civilian oversight. In your country that would be congressional oversight, that is, civilians to whom oversight is delegated. Why is that so important for public safety?

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

I think it's because there are humans in all of those organizations that have been mentioned, and as noted, they occasionally screw up. Whether they do it with malice or they do it by accident, it doesn't matter. If they violate the law, there needs to be some process in place that recognizes that possibility and can adjust to it.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

If this bill fails to strengthen or enhance civilian oversight or parliamentary oversight, would it be a failure, in your perspective?

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

It would be a danger, not necessarily a failure, because I think these things evolve.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

A danger to whom?

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

A danger to the civil liberties piece. You need some sort of oversight.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

A danger to citizens.

[Dr. Steven Bucci]

You need some sort of oversight, yes, sir.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I note that Mr. Cape agrees with that perspective. Is that true?

[David Cape]

With what perspective?

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

That parliamentary oversight is critical.