Public Safety Committee on Nov. 26th, 2013

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

That's correct. So the involved police office still maintains responsibility for examining the conduct, and that is typically for municipal police forces. The oversight for that is with the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner, with Commissioner Stan Lowe. Our office investigates any allegation that a criminal offence may have taken place, so typically that involves the Criminal Code or any other enactment.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

In terms of Ontario, you're the equivalent of its Special Investigations Unit as opposed to the office of public complaints.

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

That's correct.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

You're a witness regarding the economics of policing, and so how do you see your fit now in reducing policing costs compared to when your unit didn't exist? Would you say you have been able to reduce the costs surrounding investigations? You said in the past it took two to three years to complete an investigation, but with your unit it's now taking six to seven months. Do you see that as a method of reducing policing costs for the Province of British Columbia?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

That certainly is one of the outcomes we're looking for. After 14 months it's too early to comment much more than anecdotally. We've concluded 30 cases. We know from the other police services that typically used to conduct these investigations that these are concluded in a more timely fashion by the IIO. Anecdotally, we hear that it frees them up to be more devoted to their ongoing cases, as opposed to being called in to conduct external investigations of other police forces. So that's certainly an outcome that we are hoping for.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

In your previous testimony you also noted that a serious case in, I was going to say in the Lower Mainland, but in the Vancouver or Victoria, the more highly populated areas of British Columbia, might be less expensive to investigate and even be considered a more minor type of occurrence than if it had occurred, let's say, in Fort St. John. Would that be because you are centrally located in the Lower Mainland as opposed to having offices in other parts of British Columbia?

Could you expand on that a little more?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

Thank you.

For the most part, our cases to date have been in the Lower Mainland, which came as somewhat of a surprise to us. To go to northern B.C.—somewhere like Fort St. John, in the Peace-Liard area—there are increased travel costs.

We also perhaps look to the local police service to hold the scene for as long as it takes for us to get there. If the weather, potentially, is a problem, we'll look to the local police service to gather the evidence and hold it until we get there.

These are all costs that you would not necessarily incur if there were an officer-involved shooting in Surrey, to which you could get out very quickly. You could customize your investigative response and you would be able to obtain the evidence very quickly and interview witnesses quickly.

We expect that there will be cases of, say, a motor vehicle or a use-of-force incident in Dease Lake or in Kwadacha, a northern B.C. first nations community, that could cost more than what is typically viewed as a more serious case of a shooting three blocks from where our office is.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

You mentioned $9.3 million and that you're being held to that amount for efficiency reasons—I guess balancing the budget or that type of thing. Have you looked at the feasibility of perhaps decentralizing, in other words, putting a smaller unit in central British Columbia or somewhere a little bit closer to the rural areas, as a way to reduce costs?

In other words, have you looked at this from an efficiency and cost-reduction perspective? If you have, did you think it was feasible to do from a cost perspective, given that you have rents and perhaps clerical staff, etc.?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

Yes, we looked at that prior to the office's opening its doors. We examined what was done in Alberta for ASIRT. We looked at the SIU. We were very grateful to have the benefit of the SIU's experience. The SIU has part-time, on-call investigators throughout the province who have the ability to respond very quickly. I believe the majority, if not all of them, are former police officers.

We were challenged with needing to create a culture of civilian policing, if you will. The chief civilian director decided that in order to do that, he needed everyone under one roof in one location. That's not to say that down the road we wouldn't be looking at satellite offices. It is something that has been raised by the public in B.C. numerous times.

I think, as winter is upon us, we'll potentially be facing cases in the interior and northern B.C. in which travel and weather have an impact upon our response times. That then lends itself to depending upon the resources of the local police service. In some of these communities there are only four police officers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine. Thank you very much. The time has expired.

We will now go to Mr. Easter, please, for seven minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, Ms. Kilpatrick, for appearing before the committee.

I wanted to come to Mr. Norlock's point. This is a study on the economics of policing. In your remarks, you said that the investigations were taking two to three years, and now they seem to be concluded by the IIO in six to seven months.

What are the reasons for that? I think it's a major step forward; you're talking about taking a third of the time. What is that the result of?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

I would say it's a result of our being able to dedicate ourselves solely to these investigations, whereas other police forces who are called in to conduct criminal investigations of another police force carry their own caseloads, the day-to-day policing that must go on to keep their communities safe. We have the luxury, if you will, of being devoted just to.... Right now, for example, we have 34 cases ongoing.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That makes sense.

I will admit, as you were explaining the IIO, to thinking that this was more duplication of another review body that would cost the system more money. On the other hand, when you made this point on investigations being faster, I was thinking that maybe there was a benefit to reducing the overall cost of the system. I will admit I'm betwixt and between here.

You also mentioned that in an investigation the IIO would look at the use of force—I think those were your words—and the police would look at the incident of assault.

How eventually do the two bodies, if I can put it that way, combine those two investigations to get an end result?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

We recently concluded an investigation of an officer-involved shooting arising from an affected person having a knife at a SkyTrain station. The IIO investigation concluded within about three months, and the chief civilian director determined, that the officer did not commit an offence. So no report to crown counsel was done. The IIO issued a public report; it was done. Our file was provided to the police service that has always maintained the investigation.

If there were any suggestion that there was an issue of misconduct by the police officer, we would also forward our file to the oversight body that deals with misconduct. At any given time you could have three investigative bodies looking at the same incident: the criminal activity involving the affected person, the criminal activity allegedly involving the officer, and the officer's conduct.

Our commitment through our MOU is to share our files so that all of the agencies can benefit from a more timely conclusion.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Trying to come back to the economics of policing, in this case where you have three groups looking at this situation, based on your experience over 14 months—and as you indicated, you're looking at anecdotal evidence—do you believe the IIO has created efficiencies within the system overall and saved public dollars and done a better job with better results?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

Yes. I believe we have made some impact.

We have a very robust reporting system to the public, which meets our deliverables around transparency. Affected people have indicated that they feel well respected.

Even within the IIO, we're showing efficiencies; whereas last September we might have deployed a team of six, now we're deploying a team of two.

There are efficiencies to be had, not only with the police services but within our own agency.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

This is my last question, Mr. Chair.

At the federal level—you're dealing with the B.C. level—where do you fit in with the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP? I mean, that body is still operating. Do you run into duplication in B.C. as a result of that?

Secondly, I don't believe you had any recommendations to the federal level based on your experience, but if you have any we'd welcome hearing them.

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

Thank you.

I think we're too early in our evolution for me to make recommendations to you and the committee.

We have a very strong relationship with the CPC. When we deal with B.C.'s municipal police forces, we deal with the conduct oversight, which is the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner.

When we deal with the RCMP, we deal with Director Evans and the commission. We share our files. We've done some joint briefings. They've given us good feedback in terms of ways of improving the work we do, and vice versa. I think we enjoy a very strong working relationship with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much. The time is up.

We'll begin the second round of five minutes with Madam Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kilpatrick, thank you for being with us today. Your input is extremely helpful. Unless I'm mistaken, your organization exists only in British Columbia. I know Ontario has a similar organization, but I don't think Quebec does. So it's useful to hear what you have to say.

I know your office has been around only since 2012. Nevertheless, have you noticed a difference in the level of confidence the public has in the police, now that they are no longer responsible for investigating themselves? Do you think the existence of your office boosts the public's confidence in the police?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

Thank you.

Yes, Quebec is starting to look at a police oversight agency, so I'm sure it won't be too long.

We have a very strong network of stakeholders that includes families, the media, government, community groups, and civil liberties groups. We are very linked in with the feedback from them in terms of the IIO meeting the expectations. To date, we have received very good feedback. Some of it's been hard to hear, because it has been critical feedback, but we've incorporated those thoughts into our day-to-day operations. I expect that we will continue to enjoy hearing from our stakeholders about what we're doing well and what we need to do differently.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Could you give us some examples of the feedback you received?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

We issued a media release on a case involving an affected person who had been taken into custody and experienced some physical injury because of the use of force. In the media release, at his family's request, we disclosed that he experienced autism. We received information and feedback from the civil liberties and autism groups that they felt it was inappropriate to include that information, that it was personal and private, and that even though the family's view was that they wanted it disclosed, this was an adult male, and his right to privacy outweighed the views of his family.

We took that into consideration and now make a point of sending our public reports through to the privacy commissioner before they're released to the public.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

So, as a result of the feedback you received, you adjusted your policies accordingly. Frankly, that's great.

I'd like to know which populations are affected by your investigations. Could you give us an idea of how many men, women, first nations members and people struggling with mental health issues are affected? Are the numbers more or less in line with the demographics of the general population? Do you deal with more cases involving members of first nations communities? Do you deal with more cases involving individuals with mental illness? What kinds of cases do you come across in your investigations?

[Kellie Kilpatrick]

It's not representative of the population, but I think it's representative of the population that police services provide service to. We are not seeing a large number of first nations individuals. Most of our affected people are young adult males who are challenged by addictions, and by being transient. We've had a number of homeless affected people come into contact with police, and there are those with mental health challenges.

We have a full-time dedicated investigator who deals only with the affected people and their families. Regardless of what circumstances brought those individuals into contact with the police and then into contact with the IIO, to us they are our affected people, and we are committed to providing them with very good support during the IIO investigation.