Public Safety Committee on May 28th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Colleagues, at this particular point, the chair would seek your support to suspend very briefly to discuss, in 20 seconds, our offering to meet with the Czech delegation, the timing of that, and to accept a motion, should there be one, with regard to dealing with the approval of this bill or a potential vote on this bill. Otherwise, as you know, it'll be deemed reported. So, the chair, as long as there is no objection to dismissing the witnesses at this point.... We went a full round of questioning and we have the balance in there. If we start with another one or two minutes, then this report will have been deemed to have been reported and there's no further discussion.

Do I have the unanimous support of the committee to move forward?

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Could I have two minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

No, I'm sorry. We are running out of time. In order to deal with this, do I have unanimous support, yes or no?

No we do not, okay, then we will not be dealing with this.

We will now go on to Madam Michaud. You have the opportunity to have the floor.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I want to thank my colleague Randall Garrison.

I would also like to use this opportunity to thank you, Mr. Lapensée, and all your colleagues for what you did on October 22. I am at a loss for words to express my gratitude and tell you how professional the service was. Thank you very much for all that. We had an opportunity to say so in person to a number of you, but it's good to be able to reiterate it today.

I also want to say that I share your concerns when it comes to maintaining parliamentary privilege. As a former political science student and graduate, I understand the concept well. I was also a parliamentary guide in 2007, and it's something I had to explain to people.

I think some of my colleagues here could benefit from a little more explanation of what parliamentary privilege really is. It is the ability of the legislative power, Parliament, to pass legislation without interference from the executive power, the government. I think that a member—of the opposition or the government—not being able make it to a vote because they were held up for a few seconds or a few minutes on the Hill is a form of interference with their role as legislators. That is something we have seen—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

On a point of order, Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I want to clarify something. I think there is a bit of confusion. The RCMP is an independent organization. Very clearly in this bill the director is reporting to the two Speakers of the—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

That's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Order. On the point of order, I'm just listening.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

—Senate and the House. The inference that there is somehow a connection to the executive here is completely—

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like to finish.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

—non-factual, according to what is before us in this piece of legislation. I wanted to clarify that because I've heard it multiple times today.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like to finish my explanation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

The Chair would simply say that this bill has been put forward on a budget issue and I would just ask that your questions be relevant to the fact that there is budget approval for this. As far as getting into a policy direction as to which security force should do what, that is not up for discussion in the bill. But you certainly have an opportunity to make your point, and I would simply ask you to refer as closely as you can to the bill itself.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That's I was going to do. Unfortunately, Ms. James kind of jumped the gun and interrupted me.

The Department of Justice representatives who were here last week confirmed that Bill C-59 will not change the way the Speakers of the House and the Senate must act—in other words, following an order from Parliament, a vote. We have seen similar problems arise in the House in the past. The government, with its majority, prevented the Speaker from acting, although it had itself realized that parliamentary privilege had been breeched. I fully understand your concerns and share them, but I would like to move on to something else if I may.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, that simply is not true. Again, I ask that the member direct the question to what's actually before us, to what has been given to us by the finance committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Carry on, Ms. Michaud.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

It is a bit unfortunate that you are discrediting the witnesses who were here Tuesday and told us this. I invite my colleague to go over last week's blues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Madame Michaud, there has been no assertion whatsoever undermining the credibility of the witnesses, and that is a statement that is not permissible here. So please carry on with your comment.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

During your presentation, Mr. Lapensée, you said that better operational coordination on Parliament Hill does not necessarily require an operational merger of the two services. Do you have any suggestions on how it could have been done without transferring the control of security to the RCMP?

[Roch Lapensée]

Even if a new service is created—the parliamentary protective service—we can have an organizational structure and keep the operational structures as they are. That is what we suggest and encourage. Different cultures are involved. The Senate has its own culture, as does the House of Commons. Those two cultures are completely different, and a third culture is now being added—the RCMP's police culture. I think that we can have a new service, the PPS—an organizational structure for managing operations—but that we can still keep each individual service with its expertise.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much. We've now reached the expiration of our meeting. We certainly thank our witnesses for coming here today.

If there is unanimous consent to carry on to discuss the issues with regard to the Czech delegation and the motion, the Chair will do so . Should there not be consent, we will simply adjourn.

Do I have unanimous consent to discuss those two issues, or will we adjourn?

[An hon. member]

Yes.

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

The meeting is adjourned.