Public Safety Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

I call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, thank you very much for your attendance here today.

Welcome to our distinguished guests. Let us first apologize for the brief interruption for votes, but as everybody here well realizes, this is something that does not always consistently control our time.

This is meeting number eight of the public safety and national security committee, and today's meeting is and will be televised, as agreed upon by all parties. We all should recognize that this meeting is dedicated to supplementary estimates (B), 2013-14.

Appearing before the committee today, we have the minister for the first hour, and in this particular case it was 11 until 12, so it will be up to the minister himself to decide whether or not he can stay after 12 o'clock, depending on what his commitments are. That latitude will remain with the minister.

So for the first hour we have the Honourable Steven Blaney, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. As well, of course, we have a number of respected senior officials here with us today, and we're delighted to have you all here for the examination of the supplementary estimates.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Deputy Minister François Guimond. From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have the president, Luc Portelance. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Commissioner Bob Paulson; and from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission, we have Ian McPhail, interim chair. From Correctional Service Canada, we have Anne Kelly, senior deputy commissioner; and from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Jeff Yaworski, deputy director.

Welcome to all of our guests, and thank you very kindly for coming to this meeting here today.

The prompter says we are in camera, but of course we are not in camera. I just reference that for any of my colleagues who had a concern.

Now, without delay, we welcome the opening comment from the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Dear colleagues, it is an honour to be here today. This is the first time I've appeared before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security as the minister responsible for the portfolio.

I would first like to welcome the new members who, like me, are joining the committee.

Mr. Chair, thank you for running this committee, which does important work. Thank you for your work within the committee on very important matters. This is the first time I am attending a committee with such a wide table.

I belong to a department that will soon celebrate 10 years. It was created following the events in September 2001. My department comprises all the security agencies that work to protect Canadians.

I am accompanied by François Guimont, the deputy minister, Luc Portelance, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Mrs. Kelly, from the Correctional Service of Canada, and Mr. Paulson, RCMP commissioner, who spoke on the weekend about ensuring that Canadian information remains Canadian. I am also accompanied by Mr. Yaworski, from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. They have worked together on this, and I would like to congratulate them. We also have Ian McPhail, who plays an important role with the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP.

The purpose of my appearance here this morning is to seek your unanimous support for supplementary estimates (B) 2013-14.

There's a main item I will be seeking funding for, but I would like to lay out some of the more specific expenses that relate to the people accompanying me, which total $816.5 million.

There is a net $82.9 million for the Canada Border Services Agency, which is represented by Mr. Portelance here today, and that includes funding to fulfill commitments under the Beyond the Border action plan. The plan was agreed to between President Obama and the Prime Minister in 2011. Implementing it is a priority for the government. Projects to be funded through these estimates include developing a new shared entry-exit program to strengthen the integrity of Canada's border and immigration programs; implementing the interactive advance passenger information initiative to screen international air travellers prior to their departure for Canada; continuing work to implement pilot projects for the integrated cargo security initiative; and enhancing the trusted trader and trusted traveller programs, better known as the NEXUS program.

These programs will build on our government's strong record of protecting our borders. Since 2006, we have increased the number of front-line border officers by 26% and we have removed more than 115,000 illegal immigrants.

The supplementary estimates (B) also includes a net increase of $31.4 million for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. That includes $7 million for injured officers and transfers from other departments to fund RCMP services, including first nations policing.

As for the Correctional Service of Canada, a net amount of $4.7 million is intended in large part to cover salary increases for front-line correctional officers.

For the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, an increase net of $4 million is needed, mostly to recover costs related to existing program expenditures.

Finally, a net increase of $4.7 million is needed for the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP, part of which will help fund new elements of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP.

Peripheral spending totals $127 million of the total $816 million requested in the supplementary estimates (B).

I would now like to talk to you about the heart of today's budget request, which is $688.9 million, or 84% of the net total of the increase requested in these supplementary estimates.

This past June, historic floods hit southern Alberta, an event that the Insurance Bureau of Canada identifies as the most expensive natural disaster in Canadian history. These estimates seek $689 million for the disaster financial assistance arrangement, known as DFA, a cost-sharing program that helps provinces and territories cover exceptional costs of natural disasters that they cannot be reasonably be expected to pay for themselves.

The breakdown of these costs goes like this: $100 million would go towards the 2011 flooding in Manitoba; $75 million would go for the flooding in Saskatchewan in 2011; and $5 million would go for the 2012 flooding in New Brunswick. We also had flooding in Alberta, where the amount of $9 million is planned; and $500 million will go towards advance payments to Alberta for the 2013 floods.

In light of these exceptional costs, our government has committed to set aside up to $2.8 billion in funds to provide assistance to the Province of Alberta over the coming year. So 84% of the request this morning is related to natural disasters; of this, $500 million is for the advance payments in Alberta.

Unfortunately, that's not all. The government also acted quickly to rectify the situation in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec. Although man-made disasters do not usually fall within the scope of our natural disaster plans, which do not apply to human-induced events, the government agreed to contribute $60 million to support recovery and reconstruction in Lac-Mégantic. On November 21, 2013, Prime Minister Harper announced an additional $95 million in support for decontamination, an amount that will be included in future supplementary estimates.

These estimates also seek approval to transfer $25 million from Public Safety Canada to the RCMP to pay for the federal share of policing costs for RCMP services in some first nations and Inuit communities across Canada. In March our government reaffirmed our commitment to the first nations policing program. My predecessor, Minister Toews, announced the five-year renewal of the program, along with $612.4 million over five years. And we continue to work with provinces, territories, and first nations and Inuit communities to sign multi-year agreements under the FNPP, the first nations policing program, which helps ensure professional, dedicated, and responsive policing services in approximately 400 first nations and Inuit communities in Canada.

In a nutshell, you can see from these supplementary estimates that our government's public safety priorities are clear. We are focusing on securing our borders, namely with the Beyond the Border initiative, ensuring our correctional system actually corrects criminal behaviour, and we are supporting and standing up for communities in their time of need following a disaster.

As you can see this morning, the supplementary estimates are quite clear. As I've mentioned, 84% is related to natural disasters in part of the DFA program; the other part is, as described, the adjustment to the different agencies, with one same goal: to increase the safety of Canadians.

With that in mind, Mr. Chair, I'd be more than open to answering questions the members may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, honourable Minister. We will go ahead with our round of questioning, and hopefully we'll have time for the minister to at least do a round with everybody in the first round—we're hoping, but we'll play it by ear.

First off, we'll start with Mrs. James, parliamentary secretary, please, for seven minutes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the committee, Minister Blaney, and all of the other guests as well. It's nice to see you. Most of you I've met before.

I'm going to start, Minister Blaney, with some questions regarding our prison population. There's been quite a lot of attention paid to the issue of population growth in our prisons. The issue of double bunking has come up time and time again. If I'm not mistaken, some people out there, groups, or even opposition parties, thought the prison population would actually increase by 300% and 400%. In fact, I don't think that's correct.

I'm wondering if you could give us your comments on that. We've even heard that our government, because of our tough on crime legislation, would end up having to build these billion-dollar prisons to accommodate all the prisoners we're going to throw in jail.

Have those estimates actually materialized? Have we built new prisons? Could you comment on that, please, for the record?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you for the question, Madam James.

Indeed, no, they have not materialized. Ms. Kelly can attest to the evidence. In fact, we are closing prisons—one in Quebec, one in Ontario. The amount of double bunking is as low as 20% in our facilities, and is expected to go down.

The fact is that we feel it's important to keep criminals behind bars. We are happy to see that the crime rate is still decreasing in this country, and we are moving forward with the agenda to make sure that those who commit violence and represent a threat to society are kept behind bars.

To the specifics of your question, I can refer to Ms. Kelly. But the apocalyptic projections that were made have not materialized. There is a steady pace of criminals behind bars, but one has to take into account the increase in the population.

Madam Kelly, would you like to add something?

[Anne Kelly, Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you for the question.

I think originally when the projections were done, the data we had at our disposal was about three to four years old. It was projecting growth in remand offenders. The following year we noticed that the growth wasn't actually materializing, so our researchers developed a forecasting tool, and now when we look at projected and actual number of offenders with that forecasting tool, we're within 48 inmates. So it's projecting very well.

Certainly the additional cells that are going to come online—2,752 by the end of March 2014—we believe will be able to absorb the capacity.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, can I ask you a question specifically about double bunking? Is double bunking a normal practice throughout the world in countries that we're compared to? Double bunking doesn't cause someone to be violent. They are in jail, in federal penitentiaries, because they have committed in most cases very heinous violent crimes. I just want your comments on the whole theory that double bunking is somehow responsible for violence in our jails.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your question,

…the parliamentary secretary…

I'll answer in English. Double bunking is a normal practice in western countries. I think I can take the opportunity to thank the correctional services for their great work within our facilities, because they are making use of this in a rather clever way. Actually, Correctional Services Canada has done some studies that demonstrate that there is no link between violence and double bunking in our facility. Moreover, they are also making sure that the matching of inmates is appropriate. So this strategy is working.

As I've indicated, the numbers are low, but this is a means by which we manage the population within our facility. As you know, we have also increased our number of units over the years, but the fact of the matter remains that most of the inmates are in a single cell, although we feel that double bunking is a normal practice and that actually prisoners are not entitled to their own cells.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your opening remarks you talked about the Beyond the Border action plan, a shared entry-exit program, and about having proper identification before the traveller comes to Canada, so we can actually stop them at their takeoff country, as opposed to allowing those coming into Canada to be here and then having to be removed at some other point in time.

I thank you for sharing that with us, and also for bringing us the fact that since 2006 we've actually removed over 115,000 illegal immigrants who have come to Canada illegally and who should have been removed and had to be removed because they were probably asked to leave and they did not. So I thank you for bringing those statistics.

The next question has to do specifically with our border. I'll be quick. We've heard opposition and perhaps some media claim that our border is at risk because of cuts to CBSA. I'm just wondering how that's possible, because they are doing a fantastic job. They have removed 115,000 people. They secure our borders. Could you comment on that, please?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Absolutely. There is a lot to say about the Beyond the Border initiative. As I indicated, we have increased our number of border service officers by 26%. That's why we have been able to get those outstanding results and return those who enter our country illegally. We have to make sure that our immigration system, which is one of the most generous in the world, is working well.

I would like to go on, but Mr. Portelance can tell you a lot about what we're doing with the Beyond the Border initiative. One thing for sure is that we are committed to making our border safer. As the Auditor General acknowledged in his latest reports, a lot of progress has been made. We need to make more progress, and we will seek support from the members in order to continue to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Minister.

If Mr. Portelance wishes to comment, of course, he can do it in another round of questioning. We are now past the time here.

We will now go to Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the new minister to the public safety committee. I look forward to having the chance for more dialogue with the minister on a more regular basis perhaps than we had with the previous minister.

Obviously, public safety is a challenging portfolio, given its breadth, and I would like to thank all the officials who are with the minister today. It's a clear indication of the responsibilities that come under the minister. My sympathies are with the new minister; I think it's extra challenging given the record of the previous minister. My disappointment is that the supplemental estimates should have provided you with a chance to address some of these outstanding concerns.

My colleagues will have questions in a number of areas, but I want to start by asking about what has now become a crisis in our prison system, and this has been documented in the annual report for 2012-13 by the Correctional Investigator. In there, he makes reference to conditions in our prisons that are much like those of the late sixties and early seventies, which led to prison riots. I think this is a very serious concern.

There's a growing prison population, and despite members here today congratulating themselves on not reaching the worst predictions, we have a steady growth in the prison population. We now have the highest prison population we've had in our history at a time when crime is going down. The Correctional Investigator said very clearly that this growth is policy driven, not crime driven. It's a result of the decisions of the government to incarcerate more people, rather than to focus on rehabilitation.

The minister has had the recommendations in this annual report since June 28, so my disappointment in the supplemental estimates is that there's no response to the urgent concerns raised by the Correctional Investigator. He talks about the tensions caused by overcrowding and double bunking. I find it particularly misleading to talk about being entitled to a private room. Double bunking is placing two prisoners in a cell designed for one, and all the criminal justice literature around the world shows that this practice leads to an increase in violence and tension within prisons. If the minister actually has a study showing differently, I would invite him to table that study with this committee.

The Correctional Investigator, in particular, in his report focuses on the failures to meet the rehabilitation needs of aboriginal and visible minority offenders. Both of these are vastly overrepresented in prison custody, and he points to the lack of culturally appropriate rehabilitation programs for both aboriginal people and visible minorities.

I'm asking about these issues because the failures of the correctional system have a direct impact on public policy. If offenders leave the system without being rehabilitated, it will result in future victims of crime. My question very specifically is, why is there no response whatsoever in the supplemental estimates to the annual report of the Correctional Investigator?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison. That's a fairly detailed question that calls for a rather detailed response.

The correctional investigator did in fact issue a report that the people of Correctional Services are analyzing. They will consider his recommendations and issue directives in that regard. Please stay tuned for follow-up on the Correctional Services report.

You spoke about Canada's prison population, but I would like to point out that Canada's population has never been this high. There is a correlation between the population and the number of criminals. Canada's population is currently over 30 million, and our federal prisons currently house about 15,000 inmates. That's too many, but if someone has committed serious and violent crimes or is a threat to society, it is important to not release them too soon and to prevent them from committing other offences. Those people need to be behind bars.

Mr. Garrison, I live in the Lévis—Bellechasse riding. Someone from the municipality of Armagh, which is in that riding, was attacked by a repeat offender. The National Parole Board report stated that the individual was still a threat to society, yet he was released. I think Canadians are tired of having dangerous criminals on the streets endangering people's lives. That's what my predecessor, Vic Toews, was committed to and he was quite successful. I am very proud of the work he and his predecessors did. I am also very proud of the agenda that our government has put forward to make our streets safer.

With respect to correctional services, I've had the opportunity to visit minimum, medium and maximum-security detention centres. In all cases, I got an idea of all the measures implemented so that inmates, particularly aboriginals, had access to a rehabilitation program that took their profile into consideration.

It's obvious that the aboriginal inmate population has increased. That's why Correctional Services has made a considerable effort to deal with that segment of the population in our institutions. There are areas that take into account their aboriginal practices and beliefs. We also use specialized staff. A number of measures have been taken. As you know, Canada is a leader in rehabilitation, especially so that inmates can gain the aptitudes and skills so that once they are released, they have the competencies the labour market is looking for.

Your question is fairly broad. To come back to the last point you raised, I'd like to point out that fewer than 20% of inmates double-bunk in our prisons, which is very low. It's important to remember that being in prison isn't a luxury. The New Democrats are against abolishing old age security benefits for inmates, but there comes a time when we have to stop maintaining an unbalanced system. I hope that we can count on your support to find a balance between the victims and inmates when it comes to the measures we are going to put forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison.

We'll now go to Mr. Norlock for seven minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And through you to the minister and officials, thank you for attending today.

I have a couple of quick questions to do with two somewhat different topics.

For the first one, Minister, I wonder if you could give your thoughts on an accusation that's been around with regard to racism in the ranks of our correctional officers.

After you finish that, perhaps you could talk about mandatory minimum penalties that this government put in place to protect children and Canadians from the most serious offenders. Could you share your thoughts on the Liberal leader's recent statements regarding the desire to repeal these.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I will begin by saying that as a society, we need to set the bar. We need to say that this is unacceptable, that adults attacking children, attacking them sexually, is not acceptable in Canada.

That's why we need to give indication as a society to the judge who will be put in front of those persons. That's why we have some mandatory minimum sentences. They are actually very low in number. Of all our sentences, less than 10% are mandatory minimum sentences. They are established for crimes that society feels are totally unacceptable and where society wants to send a signal that we don't like these heinous, reprehensible acts. We will pursue and punish those who commit them.

That's why, in their wisdom, parliamentarians are establishing mandatory minimum sentences. It is not a matter of party. It is not a matter of ideology. It is a matter of good common sense. This is what mandatory minimum sentences are all about. That's why there are some mandatory minimum sentences for drug traffickers around schools, and sexual predators.

Can you just refresh my memory on your second question?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

It has to do with the accusation on the part of our correctional officers, some of whom I know very well, that there is racism within our correctional institutions, and particularly amongst our correctional officers.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I think this is an assault to our front-line correctional services officers, who work in a very demanding environment.

I would like Ms. Kelly to perhaps comment on what is accomplished by our correctional services to tackle the challenges that come from inmates from all over the board.

[Anne Kelly]

Certainly with our ethnocultural offenders, first of all, we do offer programs of cross-cultural training to our staff. In terms of the offenders in our institutions, we have what we call national ethnocultural advisory committees, as well as regional ethnocultural advisory committees.

Those committees actually serve as liaison between our institutions and the ethnocultural communities. The national committee is actually chaired by the commissioner. He meets with them a few times a year. At the regional level, those committees are chaired by the regional deputy commissioner.

We also offer, for ethnocultural offenders, social programs and activities to commemorate events. Actually, I would say, in those circumstances offenders become sensitized to other offenders' cultures, as do the staff.

If there's any allegation of inappropriate conduct, that is taken seriously. In those cases, we would do an investigation and then impose appropriate sanctions if required.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Minister, a previous question by my friend across the way had to do with some programming. In my riding of Northumberland—Quinte West, we have one of Canada's largest federal penitentiaries, Warkworth Institution. Many times I've done tours there.

I know there was a special building constructed specifically for first nations, for our aboriginal communities, to learn to be proud of their culture, to learn that how you get over some of the issues surrounding...it is by instilling, going back to, the proud heritage they have, and teaching them skills.

You'll have to forgive me, Ms. Kelly, because I forget the name of the program specifically.

As well, when I attended Frontenac Institution about two years ago, we learned how inmates were learning how to operate a laundry facility, let's say, within the institution, actually servicing more than one institution. They learned certain skills that they were able to transfer over to hotel management and hospitals, etc.

In addition to that, they were building portable offices—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We're running out of time, and I've been advised the minister does have to go. He has another appointment, so we're going to have to cut it off there.

Minister, thank you very kindly for coming in today. I recognize you have another appointment, regrettably, so we're going to have to be able to finish with the guests here.

We'll suspend now for one minute.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm looking forward to meeting you again when we won't be interrupted by a vote.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

We will now resume the opportunity for questions from our floor.

We'll go back to Mr. Norlock. You have one minute left.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if Ms. Kelly can do two things: first, comment on the aboriginal programming, as well as the occupational programming that I referred to, in our prison system; second, on inmate projections and actualities, I understand that you may have a chart and a graph that shows the differences.

Could you produce that for the committee, through the clerk? I'd appreciate that very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Quickly, Ms. Kelly.