Public Safety Committee on May 8th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave that answer there.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

—the nature of the source is different now from five years ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the minister and his colleagues for being here.

Mr. Goodale, in your remarks, you talked about the definitions of the classes of firearms. Yet Bill C-71 does not address that. You know full well that several groups and individuals, including PolySeSouvient, senior public safety officials in Quebec, and the victims of the Quebec City mosque shooting and their families have challenged you and the Prime Minister about the presence of assault weapons.

Here is the issue that raises. Whether through Bill C-71 or in a future debate, in light of your comments, would you be open to leaving the definitions in the hands of parliamentarians? Should they be revised for greater consistency and clarity? That would benefit both firearms owners and those pursuing public safety objectives.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Dubé, thank you for the question.

We have put into Bill C-71 a very important change in process by ensuring that the decision with respect to the technical categorization of firearms is in the hands of the professional unit within the RCMP and is not subject to a political second guess. The principle here is the one you mentioned, that Parliament should define the categories and then the experts within the RCMP should make the technical judgment as to which firearm falls into which category.

Certainly, my attitude toward any legislation before a standing committee is that, if Parliament wishes to make a proposal to amend that legislation, I will give it fair consideration. I'm open to all constructive suggestions and ideas.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

As the minister, would you be interested in reviewing the bill with all the stakeholders on both sides of the debate?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I maintain my position on all amendments that if there is a constructive proposal, and one indeed on which you are able to achieve a degree of consensus across party lines, that is something we could look at. Obviously, I would need to see the exact proposal, but I don't reject any proposition out of hand coming from a parliamentarian.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, I want to ask you about subclause 3(1), which amends section 12 of the act to add proposed subsection 12(9), “Grandfathered individuals—regulations”. In proposed paragraph 12(9)(c) we talk about:

class beginning on the day that is prescribed — or that is determined under the regulations

There are two brands of firearms that are mentioned in the bill as being grandfathered. I'm wondering if that means there would be collaboration with the RCMP if the RCMP changes the classification for grandfathering on a case-by-case basis through regulation.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Again, the definition of the class is up to Parliament. That's a legislative prerogative. The RCMP makes the technical determination as to what firearm falls within each class according to the definition by Parliament.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Once that happens, if the RCMP makes that assessment, is this allowing you, through regulation, to grandfather a firearm if the RCMP deems it part of either the restricted or prohibited?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

For the purpose of these two weapons, the answer to that is, yes, because the people who acquired those firearms during that period of time did so according to the law that existed at the time, and they did so in good faith.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

For those ones, I'm just wondering if the door is open for other—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Could I ask Ms. Clarke to provide you with more detail?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Of course.

[Paula Clarke, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

Hi. My name is Paula Clarke. I'm counsel at the Department of Justice.

The act is proposing to create an authority for the Governor in Council in the future to be able to grandfather by regulation any firearm that is later redetermined to be prohibited. This is so if it were initially determined to be restricted or non-restricted, and if further information comes to the attention of the Canadian firearms program and a redetermination is made that the firearm is prohibited, a simpler mechanism is in place to allow the government to very quickly grandfather the existing owners and to give them time to come into compliance with the licensing requirements for prohibited firearms.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Goodale, I asked you a question in the House about the standardization of practices used by firearms vendors. As you said, this is already being done in the United States.

How will you apply the best practices and make sure that the process is as easy as possible for firearms vendors? Everyone should be on the same wavelength and it should be possible to implement the provisions of the act easily.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Very briefly, please.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The idea here, Mr. Dubé, is to take what is pretty standard practice among retailers right now and make that a requirement. In other words, it's a good business practice. It used to be followed as a matter of law in Canada. That changed in the 1990s. We're proposing to go back to those standards where Parliament would lay out the type of information that needs to be retained, and the commercial sellers will be required to maintain that information.

Some may choose to do it in a handwritten manual form. Others may choose to do it by a computer system or an automated inventory system. The actual method will be up to the retailer, but the important thing is the maintenance of those records. They will be the private property of the retailer. They will not be accessible to governments, but if the police are conducting a criminal investigation and they have reasonable grounds and, where appropriate, a warrant or a judicial authorization, the police would have access to those records in order to pursue a criminal investigation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister, for those extensive answers—members being less extensive, and the minister being more extensive.

Mr. Fraser, welcome to the committee. You have seven minutes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you Minister, for being here.

Thanks to my fellow committee members for allowing some time for a rural MP to take part in this study, which is very important to my constituents.

Minister, thank you as well for the many opportunities to discuss this file while you were developing the legislation.

During the last campaign, there was some fear around the former long-gun registry. I know the Prime Minister tweeted on March 20 that there would “not be a long-gun registry, not now or ever, under this government”.

Within days, I started seeing targeted ads from the official opposition saying, “Stop Trudeau's new long-gun registry.” In my mind, this was an attempt to sow confusion for partisan purposes. I'm going to give you an opportunity to set the record straight.

When it comes to the mechanism for tracing firearms used in crimes, can you assure the public and me, as a rural MP, that before access will be granted to any information about who owns a firearm that's privately held by a vendor you would require reasonable grounds to believe that a crime had been committed as well as the authorization of a court through a warrant?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Those are the normal procedures, Mr. Fraser, that the police apply whenever they are investigating in a way that involves private property. They need to have reasonable grounds. If the owner of that property is unwilling to allow access to the property, then the police would have to obtain the appropriate warrant from a court.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent.

With respect to the verification process for a licence, which you described, and which commonly takes place in many cases, save for the extra step of calling to verify it with someone centrally, how long is this actually going to cause someone at the point of sale to wait before they can actually obtain the firearm?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Service standards are important. It will be incumbent upon the firearms program to respond in an expeditious fashion. This is a process that should only take a matter of minutes to satisfy over the telephone. If it's online, it should be almost instantaneous.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Building on that, authorization to transport is one of the issues that I hear about most in my community. Rural, responsible, law-abiding gun-owners—the vast majority of gun-owners in my experience are precisely that. They do raise some concerns around the ATT process.

One of the things I'm curious about has to do with trying to call to get an ATT over the course of a weekend, when gun shows typically take place. I don't know if you've ever tried to call the federal government on a weekend, but they don't always answer. I'm curious if there are going to be services extended to ensure that, no matter what time of week, there would be an opportunity for somebody seeking an ATT to get it in a reasonable amount of time.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Online, of course, the service will be there. For people using the telephone, the firearms program recognizes that events, activities, sales, shows, and so forth take place out of the normal business hours. They are examining what augmented hours, time, or services they need to provide in order to make sure that the service is available.

Mr. Brown, do you have something you could add on that, in terms of convenience for the public?