Evidence of meeting #115 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was number.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Right. Then how can you tell me they need a warrant? They don't need a warrant.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
In other words, then, under, for example, the previous government, when legislation was passed to remove the long-gun registry, among other things, C-42 as well, related to ATTs, nothing was ever done to eliminate the CFO or those powers that are prescribed in the Firearms Act.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
That's not true. In the original long-gun registry bill, there was a regulation passed by former minister Toews who ordered the CFOs to destroy the ledgers, those were the green books that all the firearms information had been written down in. They were ordered to destroy all the long-gun registry information.
By the way, that happened in one gun shop in Canada that I'm aware of. In every other one, the CFOs ignored it.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
For the sake of clarity, that would be regulation in order to comply with the legislation destroying the registry, but it doesn't actually eliminate the CFO's power to—
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
—go into a.... Okay.
I'm sorry, I'm talking to Mr. Bernardo; I don't know if you folks had anything to add.
I have another question, and again, forgive my layperson's understanding of it as I'm not a firearms owner myself. Right now, when a verification is done for a restricted or prohibited firearm, that confirmation number or registration number—I'm not sure of the technical term—is provided to show that the PAL verification was done. Is that number essentially just used afterwards to get confirmation that the transaction is permitted? Is that number basically like ordering something online and if something goes wrong, I have my confirmation number to confirm that I really bought it?
Is that the only purpose that number serves, or is there some other purpose?
Vice-President, Public Relations, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
Restricted and prohibited firearms are registered—that already exists. Now we're having non-restricted firearms also be registered, which is a registry. Nobody is debating that restricted and prohibited are registered. There is a registry for that. We're going to add non-restricted to that registry.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Respectfully, could you just help me out here? I want to make sure that I'm understanding. Is there not a difference between the number that shows that the PAL verification was done and the registration certificate—
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
—so the bill is dealing strictly with the reference number to say that the verification was done versus actually giving a registration certificate and forcing that firearm to be registered.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
That's right, but it's not a verification number. It's a transfer authorization number because, on restricted and prohibited firearms, every time there's a transfer, there is an investigation into the individual. Then the transfer authorization number is issued saying that the transfer has been completed and this is the reference to the background checks and everything. Then there is the actual registration number, which is a different number. They are all different from the serial number.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Okay. You mentioned the example that if you're selling three firearms to a friend, a family member, or whatever, you'd have to do the verification three times for three different numbers.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
If the legislation, for example, said that it would be a verification per transfer instead of the number of firearms, is that something you'd be open to?
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Thank you, Mr. Dubé. You have hit the essence of this. There is a separate number issued for every transaction of non-restricted firearms. They are being treated exactly the same as restricted and prohibited. The only difference is that there is no paper certificate being issued, but there is an electronic one and it's that verification number. This system is being morphed into a de facto long-gun registry.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you.
Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for seven minutes, please.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you for being here.
I want to pick up on a question that my colleague, Mr. Picard, asked about carry and conceal. This question is for you, Mr. Giltaca. I noted on your website, you talk about gun possession as a right. I wanted to just look at that for a moment. You talk about the merits of carry and conceal—actually before I go on, I take it that because gun ownership is a right, it therefore justifies carry and conceal. On your website, it's mentioned that one of the benefits of carry and conceal is the defence of property. To me, that says that's a public safety concern, and from that I take it that you think carry and conceal is a way to increase public safety.
You are nodding, so I take that to be yes.
In light of what's been taking place in the U.S. in recent months...and years in fact, Canadians are very concerned about school shootings. This is top of mind for many parents in our country. I wonder if you would favour teachers being armed in a classroom, as a way of ensuring school safety.
Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
I'm not sure what part of your question has to do with Bill C-71.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I just want to understand where the approach you are taking to this issue is coming from and how you view gun ownership, since this bill does relate to gun ownership.
Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
Well, I'm happy to talk about your philosophical question. In Canada, apparently, it's been determined that no one has a right to own a firearm and we understand that.
Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
Yes, it's more of a privilege and we understand that there's—
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Your website says that it's a right. I don't mean to interrupt you, but I only have a few minutes.
Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
There seems to be a lot of confusion around this, but we acknowledge that there's a system in Canada for regulation and, if you look at us, as a group, we don't object to the licensing system. We take a lot of heat from gun owners for that, but we're saying, as responsible gun owners, there's a lot of debate about that, whether licensing has any relationship to public safety. We do have one peer-reviewed study that says there is no demonstrable relationship, but we see that the public has a few concerns including: that people prove minimal level of competency before buying a firearm; that we want to make it more difficult for people who have mental problems to source firearms; and that we want to make it more difficult for criminals to source firearms. The licensing regime covers all of those concerns, so our group basically says that everything else that doesn't have a demonstrable effect on public safety needs to go or there should be some compelling evidence to show that it needs to be in place.
If they're not criminals, we think that people should be able to have firearms. We don't believe they should be stopped from that.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
The RCMP says that 80% of killings that are carried out with a firearm relate to suicide. This bill aims to strengthen background checks to ensure that mentally ill individuals can't have access to firearms.
This is a problem right now. As you know, it's under provincial authorization, under the chief firearms officer, to decide whether or not a firearms licence can be given out. There have been many reports throughout the country that mentally ill individuals have been able to access firearms. They have struggled with these challenges throughout their lives and have disclosed this in their application, yet they're still given a firearm. That's very concerning.
As I say, I have limited time, but I did want to ask this question. Again, this comes straight from your website: “Obstacles to hunting need to be removed, including restrictions on the types of weapons used for hunting.” With that in mind, do you believe that the AR-15 should be reclassified as a non-restricted hunting rifle?