Public Safety Committee on May 24th, 2018

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Can you tell us a little about how it played out in terms of costs or burdens on the shopkeepers? It must have been a formality at that point, after that legislation had been in place for nearly 20 years.

[Wendy Cukier]

Most shopkeepers do keep some kinds of records, but not in a consistent format.

I'm sorry I didn't bring it. If I can dig it out of storage, I will provide you with a copy of the big green book that was provided to the shopkeepers. They wrote in the FAC information, as well as the make, model, and serial number.

We have had controls over ammunition that were more onerous than what is being requested for people who are selling firearms.

Again, I come back to the fact that this is a privilege, not a right, and the priority has to be public safety. To not give the police the tools they need to investigate crimes is unprincipled and wrong, in my view.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

In terms of the background check—the lifetime background check—I'm wondering if you could validate some information that I found in preparation for this bill.

The courts have already allowed that in certain cases it's appropriate to do the full background check before someone gets a PAL.

Is that correct information?

[Wendy Cukier]

There's no question. The burden of proof is on the gun owner to show that the police or the firearms officer made an error, because the priority is supposed to be on public safety.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Currently, even with the five-year period, which would become a lifetime...there is still some discretion that is exercised.

In other words, all it's doing is giving the ability to examine the person's background, do different verifications. However, ultimately whether it's over five years, over 25 years, there is still—if I can qualify it this way—a discretionary decision that's being made based on certain mental health issues. We talked about, for example, if you're 16 years old and you got dinged for simple marijuana possession, or something along those lines, whether that is fair.

[Wendy Cukier]

Absolutely. It's discretionary.

It isn't “shall” prohibit someone from owning guns; it's that you shall take these things into consideration. It's important. I suspect that if Roméo Dallaire, in spite of having a history of depression that led him to give away his firearms, were to apply for a firearms licence today, he could probably qualify.

Again, I think that's a misrepresentation to suggest that because you can consider these factors, any one of these factors will prevent you from having a firearm.

We saw the same thing with the references in spousal notification. All those do is to potentially trigger a more thorough investigation.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I have a last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a minute and a half.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I apologize if you've already provided this information.

I'm wondering about domestic firearms that are obtained illegally. Putting aside the issue of smuggling at the border, statistically what is the primary cause? Is it through theft, or is it through illegal sales?

[Wendy Cukier]

It's a combination. I don't think anyone has provided a statistical analysis, because all they know, when they trace the guns—if they're able to trace the guns—is that a bunch of them came from here, and a bunch of them came from there. When you look at where they really came from, in many cases you don't know for sure, but we certainly have cases where people have been prosecuted for straw purchases.

On the gun theft issue, gun owners are supposed to report if their guns are stolen. If there is no accountability, they don't, and that in itself is a problem. We used to see cases, for example, where, when gun dealers were asked about where certain guns had come from, they would suddenly remember that those guns had been stolen. Theft is a problem, without question, sometimes because people have not properly stored the firearms. Straw purchases are definitely a problem here as well as in the United States, and so is people just being careless with who they give their guns to.

We saw one of the worst police shootings at Mayerthorpe. A guy gave his buddy his firearm without thinking about what the consequences would be.

There are a whole variety of ways in which you see diversion of legal guns to illegal markets.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have seven minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for being here today.

I am an urban-based member of Parliament from London, Ontario, but London is surrounded by rural areas. Whether one lives in an urban area or whether one lives in a rural area, we can all agree on the need for public safety, the need to make sure that mental health is taken very seriously, and that suicide prevention is top of mind for any responsible government.

You spoke at the beginning about the importance, Ms. Cukier, of suicide prevention. My question is in that vein. The RCMP says that 80% of firearm deaths are suicide, yet an analysis of mental health history over one's lifetime is not required, as you know, in order for a gun licence to be granted. I'm telling you things that you already know, but I think they're important. This came up in the first session, but there wasn't enough time to really engage in it.

The result is that applicants who have put forward an interest in obtaining a gun licence who have disclosed serious mental health problems that they have endured throughout their life have, in fact, been given a gun licence, and the result is that they have taken their own life and, if not taken their own life immediately, put themselves in a position where they endanger their family. The end situation is that their life is taken either by police or by someone else, because of the situation that's created due to their mental illness.

I wonder if you could speak to how critical this problem is, because it's not one or two cases that we're talking about here.

[Wendy Cukier]

It's interesting, because if you look at the recent review that was done of veterans and post-traumatic stress disorder, there have been a number of quite serious cases. The professor from the University of Manitoba who did the review was very explicit about the importance of addressing the firearms issue, because, of course, people in the military are more likely to have access to firearms.

Mental health issues are always difficult to assess, treat, and judge the severity of. I think, again, no one is saying necessarily that, because someone was depressed 15 years ago, they shouldn't have access to firearms, but I agree with you completely. Suicide prevention experts will say that most suicides are preventable. Even though public opinion is often that if someone wants to kill himself, he'll kill himself, it's not borne out by the facts.

When I started working on this issue, I think about 1,100 Canadians killed themselves each year with firearms, and even though the population has increased, with progressive strengthening of gun laws, we've seen that halved. There has been a very clear decline, and the research shows that, as you put more emphasis on screening and controls over firearms to keep them away from people with mental health issues and build that into your screening, you can reduce suicide.

One of the recommendations I didn't get to bring forward came from the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. They proposed that physicians be required to report people they think ought not to have firearms, in exactly the same way most provinces require them to report people who ought not to drive motor vehicles. That would go a long way to addressing this more systematically.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

You made an interesting point when you said that a background check would be discretionary. I think no one is saying—in your words, as you put it—that if someone had some difficulty with depression that would automatically lead to the denial of a licence.

Opponents of the bill seem to have created a sort of straw man argument by which they say that if someone has a bad day or someone has a brief experience with depression, that would automatically lead to the denial of a gun licence. In fact, if you look at the legislation, it says that the background check on issues of mental health would look at whether the person:

(b) has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or

There is some legal, technical language in there, but we're not talking about a bad day. We're talking about someone who has a real history with mental illness, who has had that challenge, and for whom there is concrete evidence that they've endured it. I think it's important that this point be emphasized. You've done it here, and I've read from the legislation.

It seems that opponents of C-71 haven't delved into the details. Perhaps they haven't even read the legislation.

In what remaining time I have, Mr. Chair, I'll pass it along to my colleague, Mr. Spengemann.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're not being generous. He only has a minute and a half.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you. I'm grateful, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Cukier, thanks very much.

I wanted to put a finer point on the discussion that's already been before you and, in fact, through Mr. Fragiskatos, in front of the previous panel, and that's the question of what weapons should never be placed into the hands of civilian gun enthusiasts or sports shooters.

I'm looking at an iPolitics article from last year titled, “Record-setting sniper rifle available for non-restricted sale in Canada”. The weapon referred to is the McMillan TAC-50, which was reportedly used by a Canadian sniper to kill an ISIS target in Iraq with a record-breaking 3.5 kilometre shot. It's a 50-calibre and has tremendous lethal force. It's not something you'd want to hunt with because whatever you shoot at is probably not going to be around to eat.

Could you give us a bit more of your frame of mind in terms of how we distinguish purely military weapons like the AR-15—my view on this one, certainly—from those that should be legitimately enjoyed by Canadians in a sporting context?

[Wendy Cukier]

As I said, I did a report on this, in 2005, I think. There's no question.

Even with the assault weapons ban in the United States, there are differences of opinion on what's over and what's under the limit, but to me the test is what is reasonably used in hunting. I think you've answered your question very clearly. That sniper rifle for sure is not reasonably used in hunting. Therefore, one would conclude that it should at least be restricted and probably prohibited because it's very hard to make an argument that it would be used in target shooting either.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I was going to ask whether that weapon belongs on a sport shooting range, with that calibre.

[Wendy Cukier]

To me, it would meet the threshold in terms of being a prohibited firearm. That's an argument that has been made in other jurisdictions as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Mr. Calkins, you have five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Wendy, I appreciate your testimony here today.

I just want to ask you, a 308-calibre, is that a hunting calibre, or is that a sniper calibre?

[Wendy Cukier]

Generally the classification of firearms is not based on calibre.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I understand that, but the argument that Mr. Spengemann was making—

[Wendy Cukier]

Well, 55 is the—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

He talked about a 50-calibre, so I'm asking you whether you know if a 308-calibre is a sniper calibre or a hunting calibre.