Public Safety Committee on Sept. 25th, 2018

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, how can you address the problem if you don't know what the scope of the problem is?

[Bill Blair]

Again, perhaps I can turn to senior officials who are doing more timely work on that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But you're the minister, so you should have a ballpark idea of how big the problem is to be able to address it.

[Bill Blair]

Can I tell you that the laundering of money in Canada is unacceptable to us? It's a significant criminal enterprise.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is the number increasing? Has it increased in the last year?

[Bill Blair]

I can tell you that the evidence that has been presented, particularly in the report that was conducted in British Columbia, strongly indicates that there is a serious problem that does need to be addressed and it's my job to go and address it.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, FINTRAC has provided more than 2,015 disclosures of actionable financial intelligence. The amount of actionable intelligence has increased by over 120% since 2012. If the amount of actionable information is increasing, then one perhaps could argue that the amount and the scope of the problem is increasing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we have to leave it there.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I'm happy to have you here today, and I was very happy to have you in my community over the weekend to talk with members of my community because, as everyone here knows, my community was directly impacted by gun violence in a public space, when there was a mass shooting on July 22. Then, a month to the day after that, along the Danforth again, there was another shooting where a life was lost, so it's an issue that is very much in the hearts of many people in my community.

The town hall meeting we had was very interesting. I see that part of your mandate letter involves responding to gang activity and involvement in gangs. We had some experts speaking. We had Mr. Louis March from Zero Gun Violence Movement, who spoke about the need to “ban poverty” and to address poverty.

Professor Scot Wortley from the University of Toronto talked about how a lot of people who were present at the town hall who were against any further restrictions on handguns were pushing for stronger laws and deterrents, but he said people have to have something to lose for deterrents to work. We really have to get to those root causes in communities that might turn people toward gang activity.

I was wondering if you could speak about the need to address violence in our communities and gang activity, and about the need to address the causes that were addressed by Mr. March and Professor Wortley.

[Bill Blair]

I've worked on the issue of gangs in Toronto. I will tell you as well that, as I've travelled across the country, I've learned that the nature of gangs and the origin of gangs, the social circumstances and determinants, are different in different places in the country. Lower Mainland B.C. is a little different from Toronto. It varies around Saskatoon in indigenous communities. There are different issues, but what we often see is that there are significant issues of poverty, as you've mentioned, the lack of access to services, a sense of social injustice and disparity that can exist in those communities.

In my experience, for many of the young men who get involved in gang activity and then subsequently in gang violence, they're not really thinking about the consequences of their act. I've been involved in the apprehension and arrest of many of them and in large investigations into the individuals and organizations involved in that criminal activity. Many of them don't see a future for themselves, exactly as you indicated, and so I think it's really important that we do more than simply interdict the supply of guns or incarcerate those who commit crimes.

It is the job of the police to investigate and to bring to justice those who are responsible for that violence, but if all we do is invest in enforcing the law, we tend to stay awfully busy. You actually have to go into communities, and this is something that I will tell you with some experience in Toronto. You have to go into communities and change the circumstances under which that violence takes place.

That is not just a policing activity. It's an investment in housing. It's an investment in communities. It's an investment in kids. It's support for those youth groups and organizations, as represented by Mr. March, that actually can make a real difference in those communities, help those young people make better choices. We recognize there is no one simple solution to the issue of gun violence. I know many people will focus on one solution and say if we only did this, that would solve the problem. In my experience, you have to do a thousand things and you have to do them well. We should not be afraid to do anything that makes our community safer. I think it is a responsibility that we all share, that we do all of the things that will keep our communities and our kids safe.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'll say that the strong response following the incidents in my community, with members of my community, is concern about the supply of guns and wanting to reduce the supply of guns on our streets.

I've heard a lot about statistics back and forth, but no one has actually said, from all of the discussions about statistics, that the number of legally sourced guns that have ended up within our illegal markets on our streets is zero. What I understand is that—and it comes from the Toronto police as well—there are still purchases. Professor Scot Wortley talked about people lending guns or having people legally purchase guns.

Is it correct that at least some of the guns that are ending up on our streets may have originally come from domestic sources that were illegal?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately the time has run out on the question.

We started a little late and there has been a bit of back and forth. I think we'll go with Mr. Dubé for the final three minutes, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you for allowing me these last few minutes, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I would like to ask you a question about your mandate letter, but which we have had little chance to talk about today: customs pre-clearance. The letter mentions expanding pre-clearance operations. Clearly, you are aware about the controversy surrounding Bill C-23, especially with regard to the powers given to American customs officers on Canadian soil.

I would just like to know whether you are able to tell us whether expanding pre-clearance operations means that they will be available at a greater number of locations, or that greater powers will be given to American officers. In that case, we will have to review the various agreements we currently have with the United States.

[Bill Blair]

I am quite prepared to look at pre-clearance where it is appropriate and where it will actually improve the experience of moving back and forth across the border for Canadians. We're looking at ways in which we can improve it.

I think the movement of goods and services across that border is good for the Canadian economy. It is not my intention to change the authorities that U.S. agents operating on Canadian soil would have under the existing legislation. I think it's important to always ensure that anyone enforcing the law or rules in Canada uphold and respect Canadian law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That's an important principle that has to be maintained.

We will look at ways in which we can continue to improve the experience and the efficiency of people moving back and forth across our borders. We will always stand up for Canadian rights and Canadian law.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I appreciate that, Minister.

My final question, before my time runs out, is just to ask if you can give us more information on what this public consultation on a potential handgun ban will look like. We've heard it announced that it's happening. Is it going to be more town halls, like in Ms. Dabrusin's community? What's the format going to be for this consultation?

[Bill Blair]

I'll try to be very brief, Mr. Chair.

We are going to have an online portal where all Canadians can contribute and have a say, because this is an issue that impacts communities and Canadians right across the country.

I will be conducting a number of expert round tables where we'll be inviting expertise and opinions from all sides of this discussion and debate.

We are also going to do an analysis of the data, and where the data is incomplete, we will find a way to make it as informative, effective and useful as possible.

We will examine closely the experience in other jurisdictions that have enacted other measures to ensure they are effective. I want an opportunity to invite submissions from interested parties that can inform this discussion and debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

On behalf of the committee, Minister, thank you for your appearance and that of your officials. As I said at the beginning, and you reiterated it, I hope you see this committee as more friendly than less, and more helpful than less.

I just remind colleagues on the subcommittee that we will be in camera in another five minutes after the room clears.

We will suspend.

[Proceedings continue in camera]