Public Safety Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, let's get this meeting started. This is the 130th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

As our first witness on rural crime and motion M-167, we have the Honourable Georgina Jolibois, one of our colleagues.

Welcome to the committee. I certainly don't need to explain to you how a committee works. I'll just let you proceed in the normal fashion, with 10 minutes for your presentation, and afterwards colleagues will ask questions.

Thank you.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Good afternoon, everyone.Mahsi cho.

I'd like to start by thanking the committee for taking the time to study the issue of crime in rural and remote areas and for asking me to be a witness today. My name is Georgina Jolibois, and I'm the member of Parliament for the Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River riding.

Before becoming an MP, I served as the mayor of La Loche, Saskatchewan, for 12 years, and I spent 10 years working with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police F Division's aboriginal advisory committee.

For most of my life, I've lived in Saskatchewan's north, and in both a professional and personal capacity, I have seen and experienced the impacts of the policing system in rural northern Saskatchewan. To give you some perspective, my riding is as big as Poland but with a much smaller population. That population is largely first nations and Métis, and our communities are spread across large areas of the north.

In many of the communities in my riding, there are only a handful of RCMP officers or local police officers who are meant to serve the community and the surrounding area. These officers are stretched to their limits quite often, as multiple calls each day will require them to evaluate events with incomplete information, prioritize their responses, and make difficult decisions based on the resources they have available to them.

I sympathize with the victims of crime in our communities, knowing that the economy of police work leaves them behind. When we hear the statistics that are being discussed about crime in rural Canada, they seem to paint an inaccurate picture of imagined chaos and lawlessness in our small towns. That sentiment empowers vigilance in the name of self-defence. These statistics highlight isolation under the guise of abandonment, and they create division when there is so much effort for the sake of unity.

We shouldn't take these feelings for granted and dismiss them as inaccurate. After all, that is the lived experience of many people in rural Canada. Our response, then, needs to reconcile that feeling of abandonment with the reality of progress that's being made by our communities. It's our duty to do what we can to bridge that gap between the feelings of our constituents and the efforts of our municipalities, band councils, the police, and the RCMP.

I do remain optimistic that the discussions that this committee is engaging in will lead to a better future for both law enforcement and the people who live in rural and northern communities.

It goes without saying, I hope, that it would be wrong for us to conclude that the RCMP and police forces are alone to blame for both the real and perceived failures of the policing system in rural and northern communities.

A few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to meet with Commissioner Brenda Lucki of the RCMP, who told me about several of the initiatives that the RCMP is taking to better serve rural and northern areas. The Commissioner told me how important it is to make sure that their rural detachments and northern detachments are fully staffed, and that staff levels in rural and northern Canada are prioritized over urban settings. Furthermore, she stressed that part of her mandate is to review the process of filling detachments across the country, and that finding a balance between urban and rural detachments is something the commissioner is actively working toward.

One of the major concerns with regard to staffing is the relief structure that the RCMP has in place. I've been told that, given the limited staff in rural and northern communities, it can be difficult on a detachment and community if a single officer or staffer were to take a leave or take a vacation. I would encourage the committee to examine this relief system further.

I've also spoken with a number of officers and community officials, who are doing amazing work with the resources they have available to them. In the community of Stony Rapids, Saskatchewan, for example, local RCMP officers have developed a unique strategy to limit bootlegging within the community. In other communities, law enforcement has developed profile management programs that identify past offenders and monitor their activities to caution them against reoffending. I've also seen a number of advancements in the use of information technology to the benefit of law enforcement.

In Saskatchewan, many rural and northern officers communicate using an app on their phones to monitor suspicious behaviour reported by civilians to position themselves in the event of an emergency.

There are a number of programs like these across the province and the country. I applaud the efforts of law enforcement in developing them and thank the communities for adopting them. Projects like these rely on community support, because at the end of the day the RCMP alone cannot manage a crime reduction program; it can only be one part of its future.

I would encourage the members of this committee to reach out to their local RCMP, find out what sorts of projects they're working on and ask them directly what has been successful. In many cases, you'll find that the people working on the ground will be able to provide better solutions than those who are not.

Speaking of community, I'd also like to talk about how municipalities and bands are using their resources to address crime in their community. We all know that what motivates a person to commit a crime is a complex network of decisions and conditions that have led them to a certain point in their life. Communities are aware of that fact. In addition to social programs, they are actively investing in crime reduction and crime management programs across Canada. Municipalities invest in after-school programs for vulnerable youth, anti-gang strategies, drug and alcohol advocacy, and support systems for people when they get out of prison. The same is true of rural communities.

With the rise of incidents in rural Saskatchewan, communities in my riding have begun investing more of their limited resources in community safety and peacekeeping initiatives. For example, the community of Pelican Narrows has successfully put in place a peacekeepers program through which trained individuals, who are not police, will monitor their community for incidents and respond where appropriate. Peacekeeping officers take a six-week training program, at a cost to the community, and make their community safer. Programs like these are successful and I would encourage the committee to study them further.

I would like to point out that community safety and peacekeeping programs do come at a cost to the community that funds them. Municipalities and first nations' communities operate on severely limited budgets already, and when forced to shift their focus towards security, the community will sacrifice much-needed social programming to compensate.

I would further advise the members of this committee that investments in policing and community safety programs are one part of a crime reduction strategy that involves social programming. A government cannot effectively invest in security without also investing in community.

To conclude, I'd like to emphasize to the committee that the relationship between police and the community they serve is vital to the success of any safety or policing initiative. The word “rural” does not mean “alone”, and “remote” does not mean “isolated”. Communities whose members listen to one another and who understand each other's backgrounds and ways of life lead to more peaceful communities. I would caution the committee in being too reactive to stories they see in the media and advise that the priorities of one group not be placed over the needs of another. Having safe communities is in everyone's best interest. The way we choose to build that community and enforce that value of togetherness will determine how successful the results of any initiatives in rural crime will be.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Jolibois.

Our first questioner is Ms. Dabrusin.

You have seven minutes, please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you very much for coming today.

I was interested to see that you were coming today because I had looked at your notes of what you had said when this motion was before the House. I noticed today you focused a lot on the language we use about isolation, rural, and how we use words.

You raise the question of how the term “rural crime” can be interpreted differently by different people. I was wondering if you might be able to talk with us a little more about that, because it will be important when we get to the report writing stage.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

First of all, thank you for that question.

I'd like to make clear that I'm here to talk about community public safety. I'm not interested in having a discussion about one group being more at risk than another group. I see an equal footing when I talk about community public safety. The detachments in our rural and northern communities are there to serve us equally. My public safety is as important as that of the next person who reports a crime involving a property-related offence or an assault or another offence. It's really crucial. The elders have taught me over the years and teach communities and the youth about the importance of having key working relationships between law enforcement and communities to come up with solutions together.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I think that was clear from what you said in your opening statement. It was because you really put out.... What you said is that the phrase “rural crime” does not mean crime in rural Canada; rather, to many it means crime by indigenous people committed against non-indigenous people. That's what I see in your statement. I wanted to clarify, because words are important, and we're going to be asked to address them.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Words are really important, but if you look at the whole context, it was to make a point that everyone's safety is of utmost importance.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Absolutely.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm not engaging in any discussion in which one group is creating more division or creating more problems for one group over another.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's a good flag for us as we go through this report. I appreciate your setting that as a flag.

Another thing you said was to look at different community ideas and what might be working in various communities. When you were making your speech in the House, you referred to a few different programs. I thought maybe you could tell us more about those programs and what we should be looking at.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What specific kinds of programs?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I was actually going to.... Give me one second.

You talked about having attended the New North Northern Justice Symposium. When you were there, you referred to the northeast youth violence reduction partnership.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

That would be in the community of Pelican Narrows in the region on the northeast side of northern Saskatchewan.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Is that the same thing as the peacekeeping thing that you were talking about?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It is one of the initiatives that the band is undertaking. The approach they have undertaken there is a key community policing initiative, with a key relationship with the RCMP to look at various initiatives for the community. If criminal activity is occurring, the community can report easily to the police, and with a better relationship with the police, there are improved services available.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's interesting, because one thing being talked about when I was looking and preparing for today—and we'll be hearing from the RCMP next—was various initiatives that they are taking in Alberta. They received increased funding from the province to undertake some policing efforts specific to rural areas. I don't know whether you've had a chance to look at any of that or have any comments about what has been happening. It's really just this year that these programs have been put into effect.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

As the member of Parliament for the Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River riding, I'm keenly interested in northern Saskatchewan and the province of Saskatchewan. It would be very helpful if my provincial government did the same as the Alberta government, which has given funds to support various initiatives at the community level. We don't have that same thing happening in Saskatchewan.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We might be able to ask the RCMP a little bit more about that as well when we go into the next hour. That's helpful, because there are differences in funding policing in various provinces. It's interesting to see that part of it.

In your statement you talked about the need for enough resources for police. You focused on that as well in your speech when you were in the House. Do you know how the funding of the police in your area, northern Saskatchewan, happens? What is the funding formula for police in northern Saskatchewan?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I can't speak to the funding formula. I can speak to resources offered in northern Saskatchewan from the RCMP, and then there are the provincial justice programs that occur, with a smaller amount in terms of funding.

In the federal RCMP in northern Saskatchewan, there's the F Division that is responsible for the whole of the province, and the north district of F Division is responsible for the northern part of the province.

The services that the RCMP provides are not so many. The lack of funding in various special areas does not allow for communities to have the opportunity for calling the RCMP to investigate a crime under the Highway Traffic Act, for example. That comes out of North Battleford, I believe, for the entire north. The criminal investigation team for specialized fields either comes out of Prince Albert, Saskatoon, or North Battleford, when they are called upon. With regard to the drug enforcement team, again, not every community in the whole riding has those services. They can only stretch themselves so far, so they're not available in every community—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Sorry; my time is almost up. I guess I'll say that our focus is also going to have to be on how the provinces are funding police services as well, and then how that gets arranged.

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Paul-Hus, the floor is yours for seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Motz.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm sorry, but the translation was really low. I need you to speak up a bit.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is that better?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Not you, the translator.