Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
I want to come back to a question I asked the minister regarding the definition of inmates who cannot be managed safely in the traditional prison population.
From a security standpoint, it's pretty self-explanatory. It goes on to say “for security or other reasons”.
Can you describe the other reasons? I alluded to a lack of personnel and other such problems. Can you talk to the committee about other reasons for which an inmate might have to be relocated like that?
4:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Normally it's for the security of the penitentiary or other people.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
It says “for security or other reasons”. I understand the security aspect, but I'm wondering about the other reasons.
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
That was discussed earlier. There are some inmates who voluntarily wish to go into administrative segregation who may not pose a serious security risk, and it could happen with regard to the SIUs as well.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Ruby Sahota Brampton North, Lib.
Thank you.
Earlier this year, the Parliamentary Budget Officer tabled a report looking at costs of inmates. What came to my attention was that the cost for those who were in segregation was extremely high compared with the cost for all other types of inmates. Minimum and medium security were about $130 to $230 a day, depending on the type of facility, but segregation was costing over $1,000 a day—about $1,269 is what they estimated.
Why is there such a difference in the costs? Is this the new implementation of the SIUs that we've been hearing a lot about, the resources that are going to be needed for this? Would there be savings in other areas that might be recouped from this program?
4:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I can't answer that. I would have to get back to you on the cost of segregated offenders.
4:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
It depends on what they capture in the cost of segregated offenders. Obviously, with our segregated population, what we try to do is to reduce the numbers. Sometimes there are transfers involved, so if that's captured in the cost, it might be as a result of that. I would have to see the breakdown.
4:55 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
In creating this piece of legislation, were considerations of the correctional officers and the staff who work in these facilities taken into account?
4:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes. As the minister said, with regard to those structured intervention units, there is also a need for resources. The types of resources that are going to be required are correctional officers, program and parole officers, as well as elders and health care professionals.
4:55 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
From the opposition we've been hearing concern, and I'm sure it is valid concern, about the safety of the correctional officers in the facilities. Was that brought to your attention in the drafting of this legislation?
4:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
The safety of all staff is a priority for us. With regard to the structured intervention units, again, because the offenders are going to get targeted programming and interventions, we believe that it's actually going to create safer environments. We're going to be able to get to the underlying behaviours that prompted their admissions to the structured intervention units. We also believe that, by having the programming and these interventions, offenders will be less likely to return to a structured intervention unit.
I just want to say that research has shown that programs can reduce general reoffending by 45% and violent reoffending by 63%, which is substantial.
5 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
That's excellent. We heard the minister say that just storing inmates until the time is up and then releasing them is not effective. This is interesting, too: that even the safety of the officers who are working within the facilities could improve, perhaps, in this situation.
With regard to the hours that were chosen in the legislation—the four hours a day—what was the reasoning behind that time frame?
5 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Right now, they're entitled to two hours, so we looked to four hours. Again, it was looking at a full day in prison, and it's four hours, with two hours of structured intervention and programming.
5 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
Do you think that doubling the time would result in a big difference? What kinds of results do you expect to see from two hours to the four hours?
5 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
The results we expect to get are.... Again, because of the programming and interventions that are going to take place with the offenders, we expect to have more engaged offenders in their correctional plans, to address the underlying behaviours that got them into the SIU, and to see fewer returns to the SIU—offenders who can actually manage in mainstream population.
We expect better outcomes and ultimately better public safety.
5 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
The minister was stating earlier that we would be ahead of the curve if this legislation were passed.
Can I get your comments on that—and from anyone on the panel—about why you think this legislation is important, and why it would put us ahead of the curve? Are there other countries, though, that are perhaps not within the Five Eyes, that have implemented similar pieces of legislation or made these changes, which we've learned from or can learn from?
5 p.m.
Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
It's very true, as the minister said, that we would be ahead of the curve. No country that we've studied—and we did this when we introduced Bill C-56, as well—has taken such a deliberate approach to focusing the safety on the reintegration aspect and dealing with the underlying causes.
In Norway, they make it a priority for those who are excluded from the general population to receive some targeted interventions. No other countries have a legislative requirement that they should be out for four hours.
Remember, in the legislation, this is a minimum of four hours, so this is across the board substantially more beneficial for reintegration than other countries.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Before I turn it over to Mr. Motz, you referenced a PBO report.
Can you be specific as to which PBO report? Once we have a specific PBO report, we could ask the commissioner to comment on it and undertake to forward her comments to the committee.
5 p.m.
Brampton North, Lib.
I believe it was March 2018, and I can get you more details.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay.
Based upon that, we'll take it as an undertaking that you'll offer your observations with respect to that report, and forward them to the committee, we're hoping in a timely fashion, because we're all under a bit of pressure here.