Public Safety Committee on Nov. 6th, 2018

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, with respect, that's not what I'm saying. Part of the reason we see the abuse of solitary confinement now is the lack of proper resources. That's why we see an overrepresentation of people with mental health issues. They're being put in solitary.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That's my point. You need—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

How will that change, then?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

You need more staff.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

However, that's the situation currently as well. Isn't that correct?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

When we change this system—and it will change gradually over time—the commitment that goes along with it is to increased resources, both human resources and financial resources, to make sure that we can change the orientation of the system. If it's going to run just like administrative segregation, that is not our intention. That's not what we want to accomplish.

We want to add the mental health professionals, add the upgraded and improved programming, so that the people who are there are actually getting the interventions, the programming and the treatment that will change the behaviour, reduce the risk and make them ultimately healthier citizens.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, just—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

If your point is that it takes a budget allocation too, you're right.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

That is currently the case at any rate. Certainly, we have a fundamental disagreement on whether this is actually a change beyond a cosmetic one.

I have a question, however, about the cap on the number of days. As Mr. Picard said it's something that has been brought up by the UN. In fact, I'm curious to know whether you can explain why in Bill C-56 there was a prescribed cap. Mind you, we can debate, as we did at the time, the view that the mechanisms in place, should that cap be surpassed, were insufficient, but beyond that the cap was still there in writing, much closer to what the UN has called for—to respect human rights and dignity, essentially.

I'm wondering why there's no cap beyond the five-day and then the 30-day review? The bill doesn't prescribe a limit on the amount of time that a prisoner can be in solitary.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

A cap is necessary if you're dealing with a system of administrative segregation. As you recall, we proposed to start at 20 days and bring it down to 15.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, can you really say, though, when we're going from 22 or 23 hours to 20 hours a day, that we're changing fundamentally what the current system is?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It is absolutely fundamentally different, because the programming continues, Mr. Dubé. This is not tinkering around the fringes of administrative segregation.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Without any independent review or mechanism, if there should be abuses, it's basically all happening internally. I say this with all due respect to the capabilities of those conducting these reviews, but ultimately, if there's no one there to respond with any power of law to any abuses that might take place, then we're right back at square one, with the current status quo.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Let's ask Commissioner Kelly, because she will be charged with running this system in a way that reflects the fundamental changes. It is no longer administrative segregation. It is a mental health treatment approach.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

My time is up, Minister, and we'll have the officials the next hour, but I don't think we've been convinced that it's truly a different system.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

I apologize, Ms. Kelly. We are captive to clocks.

Madam Damoff, you may take seven minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here, along with all of your officials.

I actually like the intent of this bill. I think there are some really transformational changes being made here.

I have a number of questions. The first one has to do with healing lodges, because there is a change in this that modifies section 81 of the act. What it does is authorize CSC to enter into agreements with, in the currently used language, “the aboriginal community”. The new language would change this to an “Indigenous governing body or any Indigenous organization”.

I had the opportunity in Edmonton to visit the Stan Daniels Healing Centre and Buffalo Sage Wellness House, both of which are outstanding examples of the partnership with the Native Counselling Service in Alberta. I wonder, Minister, whether you could explain to us why that language has been changed in section 81. It was actually also a recommendation that came out of our Status of Women report: that we allow organizations such as Stan Daniels Healing Centre to run more of these healing lodges.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The objective, Ms. Damoff, is to have language that accurately reflects the contracting capacity of the person or the organization with whom you will be entering into a contract with, if I have my participles right. The language in the present law is a bit vague, and the intention here is to describe the other contracting party who has the legal capacity to enter into a contract with the Correctional Service of Canada. There is no intention here to narrow the scope or to rule out potential contracting parties, but they need to have the legal capacity to enter into a legally binding contract.

I note that the language we've used here is similar to the language used in other legislation—for the Department of Indigenous Services Canada and so forth. We've tried to mirror that legislation by expressing it in the same way.

If some further clarity needs to be found in that language so that we get the intent exactly right, we would be happy to consider any amendments that might be proposed, but we think this language, running in parallel to what Indigenous Services Canada does, accurately reflects the intention here: to enter into contracts for the provision of services, with the other side having the legal capacity to sign the contract and to honour it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

One of the fundamental changes being included in Bill C-83 is the increase in the number and role of health care professionals in these SIUs. The fact is that in the past, administrative segregation has been used for individuals with mental health issues. Can you comment, Minister, on whether or not these mental health professionals will have the ability to move individuals from an SIU to a treatment facility?

Also, is additional funding at some point for more treatment facilities being contemplated? Often, in my opinion, many of these individuals should actually be treated for their mental health issues and not put into segregation, which is what was being done in the past. Could you comment on that a little?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The intention is indeed to substantially increase the number of mental health professionals and to give them the professional independence to come to their own conclusions about the conditions or circumstances of a particular individual and not in any way feel compelled or coerced by the correctional setting they are in. They would have the independence to require the right kind of treatment for that particular person, according to their best independent, professional judgment.

Let me ask Commissioner Kelly to add.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Before Commissioner Kelly speaks, would this allow us to perhaps provide that independent oversight?

I don't disagree with Monsieur Dubé about making sure that someone independent is watching what's going on in these units. I am wondering whether these health care professionals can provide that independent oversight. Maybe there is some tweaking in the language of the bill to give them the power to have that oversight ability.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

They certainly have a critical role to play in that regard.

Commissioner Kelly, do you have something to add?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes.

What the bill says is that, first of all, there is going to be a daily visit by a health care professional, and that health care professional can actually recommend to the institutional head that conditions of confinement be modified or can even recommend removal from the SIU, if the SIU is aggravating the person's mental health condition.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I visited the Stony Mountain prison, where they have units.... I don't remember the term they used for them, but there were four units, basically for people who needed to be segregated from the general population for whatever reason, but the four or six individuals—whatever number it might be—could interact with each other. Physically it was much different from a segregation unit that I've seen.

Is that generally the thinking around these SIUs?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. Right now, in current segregation the offenders are not able to associate. With the structured intervention units, if certain offenders can associate—they're not incompatibles—they will be able to do so, and we will be able to offer programming to that group of offenders, which is different from administrative segregation.