Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you very much.
I'd like to go back to the discussion that we had on stigma.
Ms. Kelly, as you know, this committee has been extremely invested in the question of mental health. In fact, we did one of our first reports on the mental health of our first responders, which included the Correctional Service. We looked at it from the other side of the fence.
Could you give the committee an appreciation of what is happening within the correctional system from the inmates' perspective on issues of mental health? How open are the discussions? How known is the problem? How approachable are inmates to solutions like the one you're putting forward?
I would like to return ultimately to the question of whether stigma is being created or broken down. Can we just get your overall appreciation of mental health within the correctional system?
5:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I'll ask Ms. Wheatley, who is the assistant commissioner of Health Services, to speak about that, but as you heard from the minister, in terms of offenders with mental health issues, based on what's in the DSM, it's about 70% of inmates, but 36% of them, if they were diagnosed, would have a diagnostic with moderate to severe impairment. There's been substantial investment made in mental health. We have, as you know, a continuum of care that includes primary care, intermediate care and acute care.
I'll turn it over to Ms. Wheatley.
5:10 p.m.
Jennifer Wheatley Assistant Commissioner, Health Services, Correctional Service of Canada
The issue of stigma can be a deeply personal issue for individuals whether they're incarcerated or not. Certainly we've benefited from following the lead of the Mental Health Commission of Canada and their work to address stigma. Both for staff and inmates, we've come a long way in addressing stigma. In our experience, of course it's very individualized, but most inmates who need treatment are willing to come forth to the health professional and get the treatment they need.
The provisions in this act that speak about clinical independence and patient-centred care will also help address stigma, because it's going to be very clear to the patient, the inmate, that the health professional is there to help them with their wellness and their treatment.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Going back to my exchange with the minister, is it fair then to say that there's a presumption that administrative segregation to the extent that it does create stigma for any given inmate would create a more significant or worse stigma than SIU would, or is it too early to come to that conclusion?
If somebody is or was put into administrative segregation within the population of inmates, what does that outcome create for her or him when they go back to the general population in terms of mental health consequences of having been put into a AS?
5:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I think certainly with the SIUs, again, because of the fact that there's going to be programming and interventions provided, that's going to assist the offender, no question about it.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That's helpful. The mental health care professionals you're going to need to hire under these provisions, who are they? Are they coming in from the outside without any experience of what the correctional system is all about? Do they need to have some familiarity of the mental health dimensions that the system may advertently or inadvertently generate, or can they be completely fresh from the outside, never having looked at it before?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Health Services, Correctional Service of Canada
From a recruitment perspective, it's sort of all of the above. We hire new graduates and we hire staff who have experience in forensic systems from emergency rooms. We hire a variety of staff who are interested in working with vulnerable populations, and we have an orientation program for health professionals that responds to fill in their knowledge gaps based on their education and past experience.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That's helpful. Can you make a comment on the continuum of care going from traditional health care as we have it outside of a correctional system to mental health care in the correctional system and how an inmate would navigate these services that are available to her or him within the system?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Health Services, Correctional Service of Canada
The bill speaks to the role of patient advocacy as a fundamental responsibility for all health care professionals, and then it's specific services in institutions that are designated by the commissioner. Those patient advocates and the patient advocacy role is really there to help the inmates navigate the system to understand their rights and to assist their family members as well when we're dealing with serious mental illness and trying to put together appropriate plans and treatments with the inmate patient.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Thank you.
Thank you to the witnesses for coming out.
On any given day in the federal prisons, what is your average population?
5:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Today it's just a little lower than 14,000 incarcerated and 9,300 under supervision in the community.
5:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Based on some rough stats I have, on any given day in Canada we have 40,147, or approximately 40,200 prisoners. About 36% of them are held in our federal institutions, and about 64% are held in our provincial institutions, which usually means two years less a day.
The Liberal government is bringing in Bill C-83, an act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and another act, and I have two questions for you. First, why are we only concerned with the federal prisoners' rights and not the rights of provincial prisoners?
Second, does your organization work with its provincial counterparts, and is there any action going to be taken to see if they are going to come on board with similar standards?
5:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
As the federal service, we administer the sentences imposed by the courts for offenders who are serving two years or more. I can't speak to what is occurring in the provincial government.
5:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
The provincial government does not have to follow the guidelines at all here, so their segregation will still probably take place as it's been taking place in the past.
5:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
The provincial government probably has some interest in what we're doing, but they will have to make a decision as to what they will do.
5:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Okay. Thank you.
As Ms. Sahota mentioned earlier, the cost was up to about $1,269 a day for a person in solitary confinement.
In your experience of 30 years—and I think collectively our witnesses today have well over 100 years' experience in the institutional facilities—do you feel there will be a greater cost incurred, per prisoner, than we are incurring currently, just because of the new demographics that are being given to you under Bill C-83?
5:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I can't speak to that.
What I can say is that what is being proposed in Bill C-83 is addressing the underlying behaviours of offenders who will be going into structured intervention units. Hopefully we can address those behaviours, which will mean they can then integrate into the mainstream population, be engaged in their correctional plan, and go before the Parole Board. If they are eligible, they could then potentially get released and become law-abiding citizens.
5:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Thank you. I have one further question.
In a federal institution, I believe you have maximum security, medium security and minimum security facilities. There's been a lot of talk in the newspapers and a lot of criticism about Terri-Lynne McClintic and her release to a local wellness centre in Saskatchewan.
I wonder if you could explain to me who, in the current federal penal system, makes the decision as to whether a person is in maximum, medium or minimum. I understand some weight is placed on the offence that the person has been convicted of, but I wonder who makes that decision to place these persons in maximum or move them to medium or minimum.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We were behaving so well up until this question. It's a fair question in generalities, as far as the way in which the decision might be made, and the officers or the people who might be responsible for the decision. I don't think we should get into the specifics of the person you mentioned.
5:20 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Okay, I'll just take the person out of there.
Who makes the decision to move people from maximum to medium to minimum?
5:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
First of all, there are a number of factors that need to be considered when we classify an offender. We consider institutional adjustment, escape risk and risk to the safety of the public, and under each of those factors there are many subfactors.
We also use actuarial tools, which parole officers complete. Again, if the actuarial tool says one thing, and they're looking at something else that doesn't correspond, then they need to ask themselves some more questions.
In terms of the decision, for the most part the decision is made by the institutional head, although in certain cases it's more elevated than the institutional head.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal