If you start with separation, you actually build friction. In terms of any institution that has worked at this, Ms. Mendelsohn talked about some of the U.K. system and I was involved in some of the U.K. reforms that looked at removing segregation and removing maximum security types of settings and using more dynamic security. Of course that was not to put people at risk, because none of us want that, but to build on the ways that you actually do change behaviour, which is through relationships. It's not through putting people behind barriers because it's easier if you're not getting along to yell through a wall than it is to actually have to negotiate.
