Public Safety Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's get started. We are likely going to be truncated by a vote at some point.

I want to thank the clerk and the analysts for throwing together this meeting literally on very short notice.

There have been developments since we decided to have this special meeting on INTERPOL, namely, the election of the South Korean gentleman as president. Nevertheless, this is a worthwhile meeting because very few Canadians, me included, have a concept of how INTERPOL works, other than a superficial concept. We're hoping that Superintendent Doran and Sergeant Cameron will enlighten us, and then in the following hour we'll have Marcus Kolga and Bill Browder.

With that, I'll ask Superintendent Doran to speak to the committee on the inner workings of INTERPOL. Thank you.

[Chief Superintendent Scott Doran, Intelligence and International Policing Branch, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members.

My name is Scott Doran, and as the Director General of International Specialized Services within the RCMP's Federal Policing Program, I'm pleased to be here today to speak to you about the RCMP's engagement with INTERPOL. My colleague Sergeant Ross Cameron hails from the Ontario Provincial Police but works for the RCMP at INTERPOL and has been working there for about six years.

To effectively execute the RCMP's mandate across municipal, provincial, territorial, federal and international levels, we must maintain a strong relationship with law enforcement across the country, and almost more importantly, with those across the globe. These relationships are fundamental to our ability to effectively respond to threats to the safety and security of Canada and Canadians at home and abroad.

INTERPOL is one of our top international partners, and it is the world's largest international police organization. Its mandate is twofold: first, to ensure and promote the widest possible international police co-operation; and second, to develop institutions that are likely to contribute to the prevention and suppression of crime.

Each of INTERPOL's 194 member countries, of which Canada is one, is responsible for maintaining a national central bureau made up of expert and highly trained law enforcement personnel.

INTERPOL Ottawa, which is housed within the RCMP in Ottawa, represents Canada's national central bureau. The RCMP is the designated point of contact for Canada and is responsible for managing the bureau. The bureau is staffed by law enforcement officials, civilians and public service personnel from the RCMP, as well as by police officers from other Canadian law enforcement agencies such as la Sûreté du Québec and the Ontario Provincial Police.

INTERPOL Ottawa serves as the front-line responder for Canadian police investigations and government departments requiring international assistance in criminal matters. It also receives and evaluates requests for assistance from member countries. In effect, it serves as a hub for processing and facilitating criminal information exchanges between domestic and international law enforcement in support of criminal investigations.

The RCMP's commitment to INTERPOL and its efforts is evidenced by the recent nomination and successful election of RCMP Deputy Commissioner Gilles Michaud to INTERPOL's executive committee as delegate for the Americas at the 87th INTERPOL General Assembly, which concluded earlier this week in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. Deputy Commissioner Michaud is one of nine delegates representing the top levels of policing in their respective countries and regions, and he and his counterparts are responsible for setting INTERPOL's organizational policy and direction, as well as for oversight as it relates to the execution of decisions of the INTERPOL General Assembly. By having representation on the executive committee, we will be able to better understand the challenges facing INTERPOL and international law enforcement co-operation and be better positioned to contribute to effective solutions in collaboration with our international policing partners.

Further, the RCMP contributes two senior personnel to INTERPOL on a full-time basis—one at the INTERPOL headquarters in Lyon, France, and the other at the INTERPOL Global Complex for Innovation in Singapore.

Canada and the RCMP are long-standing contributors to INTERPOL. We are of the strong view that our relationship is mutually beneficial. The INTERPOL global network plays a truly valuable role in the advancement of domestic and international law enforcement operations.

Thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you today. I'm happy to respond to any questions that the chair or the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Superintendent Doran.

Ms. Sahota, you have seven minutes, please.

[Ruby Sahota, Brampton North, Lib.]

Thank you for being here today.

As you know, there's been a lot of controversy surrounding INTERPOL and the way it functions. I'm hoping that through today's meeting we'll get a better understanding of some of the workings of INTERPOL.

As you mentioned, it was created to establish a non-partisan organization that formalizes police co-operation around the world, but I believe the organization is currently being challenged.

My question is, according to the headlines we have been seeing, how can the head of INTERPOL go to China, be detained without any warning, not be allowed to communicate with his family, and then his letter of resignation is sent, apparently, from what we've heard and read, without any signature? Basically, the world is remaining quiet. We haven't heard much from Canada on this, or from the RCMP.

What is happening?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I don't think it would be appropriate for me to talk about a Chinese investigation into one of their own police officers.

I can say that the person was detained and arrested in China. That's a Chinese national issue to deal with, notwithstanding that the person was the president for INTERPOL, which is an international organization. If they deemed criminal or other malfeasance had occurred, it's for them to deal with.

[Ruby Sahota]

Had the person not been Chinese, would it be a different matter? Would it be viewed differently by the RCMP and INTERPOL, and not as an internal matter?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

If the person had not been Chinese...?

[Ruby Sahota]

Yes.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

You might have to paint a bit of a scenario for me to be able to appreciate the nature of your question. This is a Chinese national—

[Ruby Sahota]

The president is a Chinese national. Had the president not been a Chinese national would the reaction be different? Would the RCMP and INTERPOL be taking different measures?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

Right.

I guess I would have a question, just to seek clarity on your question. Are you suggesting that if a non-Chinese national went, as you say, missing—I don't believe the person went missing—that the person was detained in China?

[Ruby Sahota]

Yes, absolutely.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I think the international community might view it differently, but I'm not sure. We'd have to assess that if we knew all the facts of a certain case, if it presented itself.

[Ruby Sahota]

Do you feel that with this current scenario there's been a decrease in the public opinion as to whether INTERPOL is really able to protect or do their work efficiently?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

No, I don't get a sense that the public has less confidence in INTERPOL, if that's what you're referring to.

I think the machinations of INTERPOL are governed by a strict set of guidelines and rules, and when those rules are adhered to—as of course we do in Canada—I think it is a very effective mechanism and remains an effective mechanism.

[Ruby Sahota]

Generally, can you tell me a little more about people who are having problems overseas? If something were to occur to Canadians who are travelling internationally, how would they reach out for help in those types of situations, and what would the response be?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

There are a number of different scenarios that could present themselves. Generally speaking, if travelling Canadians find themselves in trouble in a foreign country, there are United Nations conventions that would engage the consular services of Global Affairs. I won't speak in any detail about their engagement and how they do it and why they do it. That's what they do.

In terms of INTERPOL, I don't know specifically that people who are travelling, who find themselves in trouble, would reach out to it at all. It's not what it is for. INTERPOL is a platform for police to share intelligence and evidence of criminal investigations.

[Ruby Sahota]

Do you think it's also becoming a platform? There are many accusations that the organization is now being seen as a political tool and not just a law enforcement tool. What would your assessment of that be?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I haven't done an assessment of that.

I would suggest that, from a Canadian perspective, it is not being used as a political tool. We are respecting the terms and conditions with which we are engaged with INTERPOL. There are 194 different countries. There may be the opportunity for 194 different pieces of analysis to be done on how those countries adhere to those rules, but I can't speak to the way the other countries handle it.

From a Canadian perspective, I'm confident that we are being true to the spirit and the constitution of INTERPOL in our engagement with other national central bureaus.

[Ruby Sahota]

Can you explain to me a little about the difference between red notices that go out and diffusion notices? Apparently there has been an increase in recent years of these notices being issued.

Can you shed some light on that for me?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

INTERPOL uses a notice system. There are a number of different notices: red, yellow, black, green and so on. The red notice is the one I suppose that's been memorialized in movies and TV, and is the most well known. Essentially, it is put out to seek an arrest.

If a country seeks to put a red notice on the system, they do an application to the headquarters in Lyon. The application is vetted for a number of different things, to ensure it adheres to the rule of law and the spirit of the United Nations convention on human rights, under which INTERPOL operates, and to ensure it's verified in terms of the authenticity of the request. Once INTERPOL in Lyon deems it acceptable to be on the system, a red notice is issued and that red notice is accessible to all central bureaus.

From a Canadian perspective, a red notice is an alert. However, we do not arrest people on a red notice. When a red notice is issued, it basically gives us a heads-up that a person is wanted elsewhere. If we believe it to be a valid red notice, we do our own assessment process of that as well.

There are two levels of safeguarding. There's the INTERPOL level in Lyon, and then there's the level of vetting that's done here in Ottawa at the NCB. We would be the first to receive the red notice if there were a nexus to Canada. The vetting is done, and—

[Ruby Sahota]

But there are fewer safeguards when it comes to the diffusion notices.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

[Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.